647: What You Can Expect From the Next Generation of Gaming

Larry Hryb:
Hi. It's Larry Hryb, Xbox live Major Nelson, welcome to the show. I'm excited. We're doing a little bit something a little bit different today. Joining me is Jason Ronald who is the partner director of program management project management. We'll just say he's the kind of working with Phil on Xbox. Good to see you.

Jason R:
Good to see you Larry.

Larry Hryb:
This is exciting because you know earlier this week we had some news Phil had a blog post and I know we won't talking about that and I wanted to get you in the studio to kind of give you some context because sir Phil's head of Xbox and all the team has been working on this but your team really specifically is on the engineering side is talking a lot about of it and 12 teraflops. So let's talk about some of the news that we announced. Lets go through that.

Jason R:
Yeah. Absolutely. We're really excited to start sharing more and more details about what we're delivering with the Xbox series X.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
And as part of Phil's blog, we really focus on our vision of generation nine and what we expect to come with the next generation of Xbox.

Larry Hryb:
Right.

Jason R:
And that's everything from the new level of power that we're delivering, unlike anything that we've ever seen before, as well as pairing that with innovative speed.

Larry Hryb:
Right.

Jason R:
And really making sure that we're focused on getting the player to the phone as quickly as possible. And then obviously our continued commitment to compatibility and really building upon what we did with Xbox one and taking it to the next level with Xbox series X.

Larry Hryb:
And some of the stuff we announced earlier this weekend in blog post by Phil, which I'll link into the comments and, but it's, we talked about, we got 12 teraflops, so we confirm that which can you give folks an idea of what the I mean, that's a big number, I guess. I don't know. They really don't know what teraflops is. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jason R:
Yeah. Teraflops is an easy way to describe the overall power of the system and the GPU, but in reality we actually view power much more expansive.

Larry Hryb:
Sure.

Jason R:
Than just teraflops itself. We've put a lot of innovation into the Xbox series X and the real magic is going to be the integration between hardware and software to not only use the raw capabilities of the Xbox, but also to use it in the most efficient way possible to make your games even better.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah, and there's I mean there's a lot that goes into that. We talked about variable rates shading. Now what is that?

Jason R:
So variable rate shading is actually a technique that allows a developer to really focus the power that they have available to them to add more precision and more detail into the areas of the scene that really matter. Whether that's your hero character, certain parts of the action that you're experiencing.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
And not focusing on areas that don't really change or maybe there's some motions blur that's happening. There's no real benefit in adding that level of detail. So it just really allows a developer to be that much more efficient. With the power that we deliver.

Larry Hryb:
Would you say this is maybe a way for the developers to kind of really, it really just allows them to focus a lot of power in areas that they wanted to be in and kind of not maybe not in other areas. Is that accurate?

Jason R:
Yeah, absolutely.

Larry Hryb:
Okay.

Jason R:
And once again it's really about how can developers best use all the power that we're delivering to them in the hardware.

Larry Hryb:
Now we also talked about hardware accelerated direct X, Ray tracing, that's a lot of words.

Jason R:
It is a Ray tracing is always really been the Holy grail in computer graphics. The techniques of retracing had been around for many, many years, but we've never actually had the power to be able to do this in real time.

Jason R:
And now with the introduction of hardware accelerated Ray tracing with the Xbox series X, we're actually able to enable a whole new set of scenarios, whether that's more realistic lighting, better reflections, we can even use it for things like spatial audio and have Ray trace audio so that.

Larry Hryb:
Wait a minute,

Jason R:
You are much more immersed.

Larry Hryb:
Ray tracing audio is the first time I've heard that's interesting.

Jason R:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the thing is what we're really focused on is really driving that next level of immersion.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
In your gaming experiences. And that imply, that applies to both the visuals as well as the audio experience that you have.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah, right. I mean Ray tracing is one of those things where people, it's tough to, I mean obviously we're in an audio format, here's a podcast. It's tough to describe but you need to really see it and the texture and just makes scenes and areas just come to life. Right,

Jason R:
Exactly, exactly. And with spatial audio a huge part of it as well as just really putting you in the Play space environment really understanding where the enemies are or being just that much more immersed.

Jason R:
So there's a lot of new capabilities that developers are going to have with Xbox series X that they'd never been able to do before.

Larry Hryb:
Now I have to admit the next feature that we're going to talk about is one that I'm really excited about because I've had a chance to use it in the lab and that is a quick resume which is going to be available for multiple games. Explain to folks what quick resume is because they kind of may read it and think we kind of have that today with Xbox.

Jason R:
Yeah. So we actually incubated some of this technology with the existing Xbox one today. You can actually quick resume the last game that you were playing.

Larry Hryb:
Sure.

Jason R:
But with Xbox series X we're actually able to do that for multiple titles and we've basically taken this to the next level of capability. And this is really powered by our custom built SSD. That's a part of the Xbox series X, which actually allows us to have multiple games saved at any one time. And then I can instantly jump between them or jump into them and resume exactly where it was when I left off.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah. Because I got to tell you I'd have, I'll probably get in trouble for talking about this. Sorry Phil. But here we go. One of the things that I was noticing when I was in the lab was I was playing it I was switching back and forth just real quickly and seamlessly between games.

Larry Hryb:
But then I had to reboot because I had a system update and then I went back to the game and went right back to it. So it survives a reboot that's amazing.

Jason R:
Absolutely. And as somebody like yourself who had been using the Xbox series X for a number of months it's almost difficult to even go back to the old way of playing games. It's so transformative.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
And if I just want to have a quick gaming experience, I can instantly jump in have a great time and then know that the next time I come back I'll be right where I was.

Larry Hryb:
I mean quick resume. We're all used to our mobile phones and faster tablets and what not that just kind of are there and you're able to go back to exactly where you left.

Larry Hryb:
And that's kind of what this is all about. So instead of having to sit through, I mean, I love it. We love our developers. I love our publishers, but you know all those splash screens at the top, which we love seeing who did the game but we want to get to play the game.

Jason R:
Absolutely.

Larry Hryb:
To your point about getting into the game faster this really is kind of enables that vision as well doesn't it?

Jason R:
Absolutely. And that's the thing is we're thinking about it holistically across what the experiences in the title and what we can do at the platform level to just really get players into the fun as quickly as possible.

Larry Hryb:
Now one of the other areas that I saw a lot of folks also excited about was smart delivery, which makes sense I guess but explain that one because I mean once I learned more about it I was that's kind of smart.

Jason R:
Absolutely. So smart delivery is really about our vision and our commitment to put the player at the center of everything that we do. And we really want to make sure that players whether you're playing on an Xbox one or you're playing in an Xbox series X, you always get the best version of the game that's been tailored for that device.

Larry Hryb:
Sure.

Jason R:
So with smart delivery when you purchase a game or say you have access to a game with Xbox game pass, if you play the game on an Xbox series X, you'll get the assets, you'll get everything that you need to have a great gaming experience. But then if I choose to actually go back and play in the Xbox one, or maybe I, you go to your friend's house and they don't have an Xbox series X, the game moves forward with you and you'll get the version that's optimized for the device that they have.

Larry Hryb:
Right.

Jason R:
So it's really about putting the player at the center of everything that we do and making sure that you always have the best version of the game regardless of what device you choose to play in.

Larry Hryb:
So it's not downloading stuff that I don't need.

Jason R:
Exactly.

Larry Hryb:
And it's downloading all the stuff that I do need.

Jason R:
Exactly. And as, as Phil mentioned in the blog post all of our Xbox games do you use games moving forward, we'll leverage the smart delivery technology and we're making this technology available to our third party developers as well. And I'm really excited that CD project red announced support with cyberpunk, because cyberpunk is going to be one of the biggest games this year.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
And knowing that you can purchase the game this year and then when you actually buy an Xbox series X and they release an update though, you'll get that automatically.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah, I mean I saw them tweet that out that when we may be an announce, I was like, I didn't even know that was coming. That's great.

Jason R:
Absolutely.

Larry Hryb:
Now there's some other stuff in there. There's, I mean there's a lot more, but this is kind of what we talked about earlier this week. Dynamic latency input or DLI. We love our acronyms here, don't we Technically explain DLI a little bit.

Jason R:
Yeah. So DLI, one of our focus areas, gamers really demand a low latency experience and they want to have the most precise and responsive controls. So what we've really done is we've analyzed the end to end pipeline to really identify every area of the pipeline where we can reduce latency and DLI is a new technology we've introduced, which actually allows the game to get the most recent input from the player. So that way you don't miss your input even if you input happens between different frames. And when we talk about games running at 120 frames a second.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
That ultra low latency is critical to having a really great gaming experience. So we knew we needed to improve everything from the controller to the console as well as the console to the TV with new features in HDMI 2.1 such as auto low latency mode or variable refresh rate. And it's really about getting the player to have that great immersive experience at all times.

Larry Hryb:
So this is interesting. So you kind of went back because a lot of folks don't realize what their there is just it because of the physics. There's input lag when you press a button and maybe sometimes you feel and sometimes you don't, but you guys, the engineers went in and kind of went through the entire chain and said let's tighten this up and make it faster, et cetera, et cetera. Because you need that for the higher frame rate.

Jason R:
Absolutely. And that's the thing is we're really proud of the experience that we have on Xbox one today. But as we think about the next generation, we knew that we needed to really focus on eliminating as much as possible.

Jason R:
And that includes things like influencing the direction of the HDMI standard to add gaming centric features that maybe have existed in PC's for a while and we're now bringing those to the console and we're bringing them to the TV ecosystem to once again give that ultra precise latency, a gaming experience.

Larry Hryb:
Let's talk about that. In the blog post we talk about HDMI 2.1 innovation and that's something that obviously the console will have. And for those of us over at the AVS forums. Let's give them some stuff to start. So let's talk about what it's going to support and what some of those things that you did bring over. You mentioned some of them earlier.

Jason R:
Yeah. So with HDMI 2.1 this is the first version of the Sandler that supports 120 frames a second, which is absolutely critical for those ultra competitive games, esports experiences. Another good example is variable refresh rate, which has been in the PC space for a while, which basically allows the display to be in perfect synchronization with the output coming from the console so that even if you're not running in a locked frame rate, you still get a great low latency gaming experience with no tearing,

Larry Hryb:
Right?

Jason R:
And then auto low latency mode is actually the ability of the Xbox console to set the TV in the lowest latency mode possible today many people often will try to go into their TV settings and identify game mode. [inaudible 00:11:04] They enable it on different.

Larry Hryb:
Turn on all that cinema stuff off. Right?

Jason R:
Exactly.

Larry Hryb:
Right. We got to do that.

Jason R:
But what we want to do is we wanted to make this just super simple for players. So we can actually now do that at the console level so that when you jump into a game experience, we can actually automatically set the TV into its lowest latency mode possible,

Larry Hryb:
Right.

Jason R:
And then when you exit out of the game, we can revert the TV back to the normal display mode so that the player doesn't actually have to do anything.

Larry Hryb:
Right. It's just all automatic and it all goes over HDMI.

Jason R:
Exactly.

Larry Hryb:
That's the beautiful part about it. Now, the other we talked about was the next generation of game compatibility. Of course, with Xbox one, we've got this incredible back compact story and it gets, it's get better in, in series X, doesn't it?

Jason R:
Absolutely. Compatibility is something that is near and dear to our heart and we're fully committed to it because I think we all have our favorite games or franchises that we played over the generations.

Larry Hryb:
Right?

Jason R:
And as you move to the next generation, we want all of those games to move forward with you. We want your gaming legacy to move forward with your progression, your stats, your achievements, but not only that do we want the games to be able to play we want them to play better than you've ever seen them before.

Larry Hryb:
Right?

Jason R:
So with the increased power that we have with Xbox series X, you'll see things improved or more steady frame rates no more drop frames or you'll be running at higher frame rates. Some titles use feet techniques like dynamic resolution scaling where frame to frame the resolution actually changes to maintain that rock steady frame rate.

Larry Hryb:
Right.

Jason R:
With the extra power that we have with Xbox series X, you'll always be running at the highest resolution possible while still maintaining that steady frame rate. And then you also look at things like the advancements in storage technology and the advancements we have on the CPU.

Jason R:
You'll have faster load times you'll be able to get into experiences much faster. And then our back combat team is one of the best in the industry and we're really looking at what new opportunities the Xbox series X gives us where we can enhance titles even further than you've seen them before.

Larry Hryb:
I think best in the industry is an understatement. I mean those that team has consistently delivered a time and time again at an incredible rate haven't they?

Jason R:
Absolutely. And as a member of the team, I can say the team loves these franchises just as much as players and developers over the years. It's critically important to them that they always respect the artistic integrity of the original creator.

Jason R:
But at the same time too, we want these games to look and play better than you've ever seen them before. And the team constantly is inventing brand new techniques things that we never even thought were possible to really be able to push the boundaries.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah. Because that's what we talked about that when I, when we talked about back compat a few years ago about how when they were going through the process with back compact the some of the games have assets that you didn't even know were there or weren't reveal because the console's back then couldn't, didn't have enough power to show that resolution or that color palette or what have you, isn't there. They're unlocking all sorts of stuff. That's kind of a digital archeologist right there. They're finding all these crazy things aren't they?

Jason R:
Absolutely. And I said before, they're inventing brand new techniques all the time.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
And it's really awesome to see the creativity and the innovation coming from that team. And it's the exact same team that did the three 60 compact in the original Xbox compat on the Xbox one. The exact same team is continuing to push the state of the art with the Xbox series.

Larry Hryb:
So now I have to tell a funny story because you went, you've been around X, let's back, let's talk about that for a second. Should have the next box for quite a long time. Like almost as long as I have. Right.

Jason R:
Yeah. This is my 15th year in Xbox.

Larry Hryb:
So tell us can you tell us a little bit about where you came from and because I want to we've got some stories we want to share together.

Jason R:
Absolutely. So I've been at Xbox for the about the last 15 years and I jokingly say that I've done everything in Xbox except for physically build the hardware with round two hands.

Larry Hryb:
Right.

Jason R:
You know, about half of my time I spent in our party studios working on a whole host of franchises, co-developing game engines, backend services.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
Previously I owned a or I led parts of Xbox live.

Larry Hryb:
Yap.

Jason R:
And then right before this role I actually led the Xbox advanced technology group.

Larry Hryb:
Right.

Jason R:
Really thinking about where the future of technology is going, how can developers take full advantage of the platforms that we've built. And this has transitioned into this role whereas we're designing our next generation platform, we've really designed it with both players and developers in mind because what's critically important is that the best games that you can play are on the Xbox.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah. Now what I have to ask, I would be who it would be? Who I didn't ask you, what are you playing now?

Jason R:
So right now ironically I just started a replay, a final flood and see 10 remastered versions.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
And then a bunch of us are actually competing right now in a game called demons till that's available on game pass.

Larry Hryb:
Oh really?

Jason R:
Absolutely. So a bunch of us within the team are constantly trash talking about our high scores. I was in the lead for a while. Right now I'm in third so I've got to start grinding a little bit more.

Larry Hryb:
You've been busy this week.

Jason R:
Exactly.

Larry Hryb:
And frankly don't play too much because you have a console to shift later.

Jason R:
Exactly.

Larry Hryb:
Now when we talked at the top of the interview, we talked about 12 teraflops and all of that. Can you give us a little bit of scope and scale of how that relates to Xbox one today?

Jason R:
Absolutely. So from a raw performance perspective, you can think of 12 teraflops is two times the performance of an Xbox one X.

Larry Hryb:
Okay. So the world's most powerful console today. Xbox one X.

Jason R:
Exactly.

Larry Hryb:
This a two times more powerful.

Jason R:
Exactly. And it's actually more than eight times more powerful than the original Xbox one.

Larry Hryb:
Right?

Jason R:
So it's a massive increase in overall performance, but not only that, but with the new DNA two graphics technology that we've leveraged from AMD it's actually significantly more efficient as well.

Jason R:
So it's a much more high performance box. And what you'll actually see in the titles that ship on Xbox series X will be unlike anything that you've seen before.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah. I mean I saw, I was, when we made the announcement earlier this week, I was kind of looking through of all the details I was looking through some of the gaming forums and people like you can't build a gaming PC like this today at almost any price. Right?

Jason R:
Absolutely. And that's the thing is we have a great partnership with AMD and we're really leveraging the bleeding edge technology from them to make sure that this console is really designed for the future.

Larry Hryb:
And again, that's what consoles are all about because the developers, they certainly PC gamers, we love our PC gamers, but a console your developers are writing for us. They know exactly what the specs of this thing are. They read write speed, the graphics capabilities, they call what we write to the metal, I believe is what you guys call it. Right?

Jason R:
Yeah, absolutely. And we've also really focused on how do we make it as easy for developers to basically ship their game on PC, on console and with project X cloud. So we're really focused on making it as easy as possible for developers to reach the largest audience of players and really focus on making the best game possible.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah, it's I mean there's a lot of news going on here. We've we talked, of course we revealed the console in December at the game awards. You and I were there together.

Jason R:
Absolutely.

Larry Hryb:
That was exciting and people got to see for the first time and now they're kind of getting some more details so we were just kind of getting all this great information that we're going out there. We've got a lot more ahead. Right,

Jason R:
Absolutely. As Phil mentioned, you know our commitment and our promise is to be transparent with the community and share details between now all the way through launch and even though we've shared a lot of information there's a lot more coming and we're excited to share more over the coming months.

Larry Hryb:
I mean I feels I've rushed through the interview which I kind of have but I didn't want to, but I know this is, this is true. You're safe to leave here because you have a film meeting.

Jason R:
I do. I've got to go to another building and provide more updates to Phil on where we're at with the Xbox series X.

Larry Hryb:
Fantastic. Well listen, Jason, I appreciate you coming on the show and kind of talking through the announcements that we had this week about the 12 teraflops, the variable rate shading, the hard works.

Larry Hryb:
I mean we'll, I'll put a link and you can read the blog post and of course many conversations will and so how do people find you? Are you on social media?

Jason R:
I am.

Larry Hryb:
okay.

Jason R:
At Jay Ronald on Twitter.

Larry Hryb:
I'll go off to that.

Jason R:
And I'm always excited to hear from the community any feedback. I will definitely say all the teams listen to the feedback from the community.

Larry Hryb:
Yeah.

Jason R:
Because we really do this for you.

Larry Hryb:
Sure.

Jason R:
We want to make sure that we're providing the best platform possible for both players and developers, and it's critically important that we hear from the community.

Larry Hryb:
Jason, I appreciate your time. I know you've got to get to your film meeting. Thanks for coming in. We'll have you on again. We'll have you.

Jason R:
Absolutely.

Larry Hryb:
In the future to talk more about Xbox series X. Thank you, my friend.

Jason R:
Perfect. Thank you.