713: Drake Hollow

Larry Hyrb:
Hi, it's Larry Hyrb, Xbox Live's Major Nelson here, ready to do the show. We're back at you, and here he comes. Three, two, one. [crosstalk 00:00:08]

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I wanted a star wipe. I was going to zoom in on the slide.

Larry Hyrb:
So I've been [inaudible 00:00:15], so I use this Australian company who makes this software called vMix that we use to do all the interviews for. And they have a bunch of cuts. They've got a cube zoom.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
A spider wipe.

Larry Hyrb:
Look at that. Look at that.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh, look at that.

Larry Hyrb:
A cube zoom. They've got... What is this? A fly rotate.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh my god. That's some Price is Right stuff here.

Larry Hyrb:
Right?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Tell them what they've won, Johnny.

Larry Hyrb:
Right, right? They've got the cross zoom, so they've got all these features in here.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Ooh, that's a good one.

Larry Hyrb:
And I know this is terribly impressive for folks that are listening to just the audio version. But the challenge is, one of the things that you want is... Look at that slide reverse.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Look at this. You're just multiple Larrys, just sliding more Larrys.

Larry Hyrb:
What we want is a star wipe, which is the star that comes out, because anybody who's worked in television knows that that is the... You never use that. That's the tackiest...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And that was a whole Simpsons joke too. It was star wipe, star wipe.

Larry Hyrb:
Right, right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
You would do the heart wipe. All of them, if you've ever watched Price is Right, they are in the past. They're editing that show in 1980s technology, and it's part of the charm.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, it's because there's no reason to upgrade. There's no reason to upgrade. I mean, they're using that Grass Valley switcher, Jeffrey. They're just going like this, and they're just...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
TVICI 180. Yeah.

Larry Hyrb:
Oh, okay. Television nerds nerding out here. Welcome to the show, gang. We're going to talk games. We're going to talk about Jeff's [crosstalk 00:01:34].

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh, we're going to game nerd now.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, a lot of game nerd stuff.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Much better.

Larry Hyrb:
We had a big week. We had some good interviews last week. Another good interview this week. We are going to talk about Drake Hollow. Forrest Dowling, who's the creative director there is going to come by. We're going to hear a little bit about that, now on Game Pass. It kind of, as he put it, shadow dropped on Game Pass. So you're going to hear some details about what that game is and some of the success he's had, so stay tuned for that.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Tell me, Larry. What are you playing?

Larry Hyrb:
What am I playing? Jeff, what am I playing? Well, I've got Drake Hollow. You can see. Well, maybe you can't see it up there. Let me go wide screen.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It's hard to see. Go full screen, Larry. Give us full Larry. [crosstalk 00:02:09] There it is. There's some Star Wars wipes there.

Larry Hyrb:
I've got Drake Hollow playing here. I've got Tell Me Why over here. Plex, I use that to watch movies on. Apex. What is... Somebody sent me this. It's...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
What is the Super Mario in the back? What am I looking at?

Larry Hyrb:
Somebody sent me an Xbox live...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Do you know something I don't?

Larry Hyrb:
I don't know what that is. Let me explain to you that. This is... In fact, I should open it up because I don't even know what it is. Somebody sent me over Xbox Live... You know how you can gift codes? Well, people send me codes over Xbox Live. Please, don't do that because I have copies of all the games I want, so I don't need that. But somebody sent me this Super Mario. I'm like, "What is this?" So I redeemed it.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
We're not announcing something today.

Larry Hyrb:
No, this is just a guide. It's a guide.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh, so this is probably a Windows 10 app.

Larry Hyrb:
Right, so this a...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
There app is able to work on there. Super Mario 3D Land, it came out on what? 3DS?

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, exactly.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It was a very early title. I have that.

Larry Hyrb:
I mean, all it is is essentially a Wikipedia, so that's... I don't know what I need that for.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Sure. But it's funny to see a Super Mario 3D Land cube on your dashboard.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, look at this. You're not going to get that everywhere, are you? So that's a guide, it is not a game.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I'm just worried someone's going to take a frame grab of the shot, and it's going to end up on Reddit tomorrow. And it's going to be like, "Major Nelson has Super Mario 3D Land on his Xbox. What's going on?"

Larry Hyrb:
That's not what it is. That's not what it is.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
That's not what it is.

Larry Hyrb:
That's not what this is. Anyway, I haven't had a lot of chance to play things lately. I've been working on a lot of projects at my house, working on some cool podcast stuff, some stuff coming out with the podcast that we can't really talk about yet. But, yeah. We're getting ready... One of the big things, Jeff, I think you share my sadness in that summer's kind of over. It's September.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Summer's not over until we have our first 55 degree rainy day here in Seattle, which usually happens in the end of August, during PAX or something.

Larry Hyrb:
Right, PAX. I miss PAX.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So the fact that we're into the first week of September, and my windows are still open...

Larry Hyrb:
Are they? I haven't heard the garbage truck rumble by.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I closed them for this.

Larry Hyrb:
Thank you.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
But it is trash day. Yeah. Look, what do seasons mean anymore? This is just... It's September, sure? I guess? That's a thing. All I care about now is games coming out, release dates. We're a couple months out now from Cyberpunk or something, and that's my North Star.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, we were talking about what I was playing. I haven't had a chance, but I can see what you're playing in the background. Let's talk about that.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. So look, I was not super hyped up about the Avengers game. I've seen the movies. I've seen all of the Marvel movies probably. And I missed the beta. There was a beta that was out a couple weeks ago. But then I started hearing some good things about the game, and so I got a hold of the version that went live this week. And I've got to say, it is a very high quality game. There's a campaign, and then there's sort of a longer term multi-player co-op PVE situation. I hear it's kind of in the Destiny realm where you can play the campaign for Destiny on your...

Larry Hyrb:
[crosstalk 00:05:20]

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Of course, you're going to one up me. You have the whole collector's edition. Look at that.

Larry Hyrb:
And it's still sealed. I haven't had a chance to take a look at it yet.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
All right. Well, this is what I've heard about it. So you see there's the big Captain America statue. There's also a mjölnir, Thor's hammer, just this tiny little Thor's hammer. Apparently, the Thor's hammer weighs more than anything else in the box.

Larry Hyrb:
Really?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
They've made with adamantinum or some super dense metal.

Larry Hyrb:
Oh, it's a key chain.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. But apparently, it would drop right through your pocket.

Larry Hyrb:
It's a weapon.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It can only be wielded by...

Larry Hyrb:
You can kind of see it right here.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah, yeah. So anyway, I played through the first hour of the campaign last night. And honestly, I'm super impressed with it. I really was very... You've got a chance to use Hulk and Black Widow and Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor.

Larry Hyrb:
Have we talked about my relationship with the comic book industry?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Please, let's hear it.

Larry Hyrb:
No, no. I want you to finish the game, and then we'll talk about it. Finish your review.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
All I'm saying is that, looking at it, there's skill trees. There's a new character who you're sort of viewing everything through her eyes. I'm going to keep playing this game. I'm at least going to play through the entire campaign, which I heard was in the ten-ish hour region according to IGN. That sounds great to me. I've just really enjoyed what I've been playing. Everything's super bombastic and sort of high quality set pieces, as they would say. So if you were kind of turned off on the game for whatever reason, I would say watch some videos. I'm starting to see people stream it. It might be for you, and you didn't even realize it. That's it.

Larry Hyrb:
My I quote you, the text you sent me last night?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Go ahead.

Larry Hyrb:
"It's big loud and silly."

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. Isn't that what you want out of a summer movie? It's still technically summer.

Larry Hyrb:
Right, right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I haven't been to the movies in a year?

Larry Hyrb:
Oh, wow. I haven't either.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So this was my... God, I hate to think that. I'm getting that summer movie experience out of this.

Larry Hyrb:
So my relationship with the comic books is everybody loves their DC or their Marvel universes. I have zero interest in any of them.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
See, I thought you were going to say you're a Dark Horse guy. That's what I thought you would say.

Larry Hyrb:
No, I'm not. And the reason why is... I think the reason why... Should I lower the lights? Should we get into this psychiatric office?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Let's do it. Oh my god. Tell me more about your mother, Larry.

Larry Hyrb:
I think this has to do with the fact that when I was growing up in Connecticut in a small town, we didn't have a comic book store that I hung out at. And I hung out at a computer store that we talked about a couple weeks ago 20 miles away. So when the resurgence, 10 years ago and beyond, of the Marvel universe and the DC universe, that just never really resonated with me. I just really don't have any desire to see the films. I'm sure they're great. I know people enjoy them. I just don't have any desire to see the films.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So there was one year where I was super into comic book collecting. That year was...

Larry Hyrb:
That year was...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I don't know. Middle school. '92? Three? Something like that. And my mom just recently moved out of the house that she had been in since I was a senior in high school. And she went into the attic, and she was like, "There's a lot of comic books in here."

Larry Hyrb:
Really? Show me. Show the viewers.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And I ended up finding [crosstalk 00:08:39] old X-Men Number One. Or maybe that one's not number one, but whatever. And then I don't know if you remember the 90s...

Larry Hyrb:
Is that still sealed up?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. So generally, I was never of the mind like, "Oh, I'm going to put my kid through college on these comic books." I was more in the, "I'm never having kids," mindset at that age, and we saw how that worked out. Remember the 90s? Everything was holograms in the 90s.

Larry Hyrb:
That's right. That's right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And look, I don't know what these are really worth. I think to sell them, you have to get them appraised. They're all in pretty darn good condition. But I'm just having fun looking at them. So I just bought them. I bought them. I read them all once. If it had a hologram on it, I bought it.

Larry Hyrb:
Is your daughter interested in them at all?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
She loves the Marvel movies. She really loves... Captain Marvel's probably her favorite. She really like Black Panther as well. That just reminds me.

Larry Hyrb:
Yes.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Can we just pour one out for Chadwick Boseman? That was just shocking news over the weekend.

Larry Hyrb:
Terrible, terrible.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And just his bravery, that nobody knew that he would go to St. Jude's and make this movies under duress that we cannot even imagine. That is just... Bro, that's a heart breaker.

Larry Hyrb:
Everybody has a different struggle, and that is just terrible.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
You know what? It just goes to show that you don't know what other people are dealing with, and so cut people some slack, especially now.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Anyways, she's into those movies, but she's just not into the comic books. And I actually was playing Avengers. I was like, "Do you want to play?" And she was like, "Nah. Maybe later."

Larry Hyrb:
Interesting.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It's hard. I think if she saw me play it, she would totally get into it. I think that's how she is. That's how she got into Minecraft Dungeons. Once she sees you play it, she's going to full on Minecraft tick. It would probably be sixth or seventh that she's had.

Larry Hyrb:
Wow.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Just every six months, it's like full on back into it.

Larry Hyrb:
All right. All right. What else? So I see that back there. I don't want to have any spoilers, but what else are you playing?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh, Wasteland Three.

Larry Hyrb:
Yes.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I guess that's what I've played the most over the past week or two.

Larry Hyrb:
We had a great interview last week.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah, with Brian Fargo.

Larry Hyrb:
[inaudible 00:10:51]

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And that night, I'm playing the game, and I encounter someone. I had made it to Colorado Springs and was really exploring, and I encountered someone named "Farin Brago," which I was like, "That's a weird name. Wait a sec, it's just an anagram of Brian Fargo."

Larry Hyrb:
Right, right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And there was some situations where, do you side with this guy or not? And I'm like, "Look, we just had him on the show. I'm siding with him even if it means I make powerful enemies." And I did. That game is great. I don't know that I've played a game quite like this. I really love the tactics. The battles are really hard. But, yeah. I'm just super into that. I think I'm going to be playing this game for a really long time, and I'm just really loving it. It's on Game Pass. Again, if you've never played Wasteland Two or Wasteland [inaudible 00:11:39] Edition which is out, you can just jump into Wasteland Three. And you're fine, and you can be super into it. And I'm living proof. I'm living proof.

Larry Hyrb:
You are. I mean, I've played a little bit of it. I haven't played as much as you have because I just haven't had a lot of time this week. But that's, again, also on Game Pass.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh, yeah. The amount of choices there, just on Game Pass, I think it was... When we had Gary Widow on the show, and he said, essentially, if he was on a desert island, he was given one form of entertainment, one service. He could have HBO-GO or Netflix or whatever else it was. He was like, "I would pick Game Pass. I would be set." And I totally feel that. I totally feel that.

Larry Hyrb:
It's funny. I'm trying to get my console pulled up here because I want to see what other games we have in Game Pass. I don't think I can... I don't think I have [crosstalk 00:12:29]

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I can let you know because there's some new stuff that hit this week.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, why don't you go ahead and roll through that? We'll see what we got.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Sure. So this week, we announced the next... There's always something new. I feel like every other show, we're talking about what's coming to Game Pass. So this week, JackBox Party Pack Four.

Larry Hyrb:
Oh, I love those.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
We have the JackBox. The best thing about the JackBox games is you don't have to have any skill. You can be playing... You're on level playing field with someone who's never picked up a controller. That's fine. The controller, they can find on their phone. They can have a great day there.

Larry Hyrb:
Drake Hollow, Wasteland, Double Kick Heroes.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Drake Hollow, like you mentioned. Hot Shot Racing. Yeah, so these are the ones that have most recently hit. Now, you're just looking at the full list.

Larry Hyrb:
Look at this. Why aren't you playing all these, people? Look at this.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Scrolling and scrolling. You're still...

Larry Hyrb:
It just goes on forever.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah.

Larry Hyrb:
We're only at the H's.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I know.

Larry Hyrb:
Anyway, let's go back to you. Go through the newer stuff.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah, yeah. Hot Shot Racing, which reminds me a little bit of Daytona USA or virtual racing a little bit, which I have great memories of playing those in the arcade. Destiny Two. Tell Me Why, which chapter one came out last week. Chapter two and three, this week. And chapter three, next week. Resident Evil: Biohazard AKA Resident Evil Seven.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, that one I couldn't finish. That one put me over the edge.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Right? I've beaten all the Resident Evils except for seven because of the first person perspective. It's way too scary for me.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, way.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I think I got to the first typewriter. I saved the game. I put it down.

Larry Hyrb:
I'm out.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I had a stiff drink, and I was out. But it is available both on Xbox One and on Windows 10 as well. That game is frightening.

Larry Hyrb:
A lot of fun.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And I just played three. I played through two and three earlier this year, and they were great. And I loved them. And while they certainly had their scary moments, seven is a world apart. Luna Nights coming to console and PC. World War Z is coming to Xbox Game Pass.

Larry Hyrb:
Or if you're in Europe, World Was Zed.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
World War Zed. Thank you. I appreciate that. Star Renegades, another strategy sort of RPG type of game. So let's say you somehow blew through Wasteland Three. There's more things to check out. Disgaea Four. I don't feel like we've had a Disgaea game on an Xbox service previously because I remember playing these on PSP.

Larry Hyrb:
I don't think so.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So Disgaea Four, that was the biggest one that I recall. Another strategy RPG but with... Sorry, a JRPG flavor and so many different varieties of things that you can do. It's just like you can do endless customization in terms of the way you play the game. And then this one, which didn't pop on my radar until last week. But now, it's blowing up. Crusader Kings Three.

Larry Hyrb:
On PC.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So this is for... Yeah, it's a PC game. The Crusader Kings series has been around for a while, but Crusader Kings Three got a 10 from IGN. This is sort of like an uber...

Larry Hyrb:
A highly coveted 10.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Exactly. They just don't give those out to anybody, so that really caught my attention. So it's a strategy game where you're building an empire, but it really is about the people. And the IGN review is actually just really interesting. It totally hooked me. It's part of Game Pass. Go ahead and try it out. I saw a lot of people playing it this week.

Larry Hyrb:
Do it. Do it.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
This is a really good time to be into strategy, to be into RPGs, to be into tactics. The big blockbuster games, The Coming, Avenger's is here, and Madden's here, and BA's on the way.

Larry Hyrb:
Ooh, I played Madden.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
All are sort of popcorn stuff. Oh, tell me. Tell me.

Larry Hyrb:
No, I just started... You and I haven't done our... And I know that I was going to ask if you saw this because I know that when you're playing the game, it says who you're playing, if you're present. We call it presence on Xbox Live. So if you look at me, Major Nelson's playing Madden. And it shows you who you're playing.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Tampa Bay versus the Patriots. You did it.

Larry Hyrb:
I did it. I did it.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
You're a Tampa guy now. See, it's funny. People talk about sports, and they say, "You're not rooting for people. You're rooting for laundry. You're rooting for a uniform. And whoever's in that uniform, you're running for or supporting or a fanatic of." I appreciate that you like the people in the uniform. You're following Tom Brady and Gronk, where they go.

Larry Hyrb:
I just remembered. It was 10 maybe 12 years ago. We did a Halo. This was before you joined the team. We did a Halo event, and I got to hang out with Gronk one afternoon. We were doing Halo, and he dressed up as Master Chief. I mean, he is what he is. Right?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh, he was on either Colbert or Jimmy Fallon or something dressed as Master Chief too. And it's funny. You've got to be that size to be Mast Chief.

Larry Hyrb:
And he was just such a great guy. We had such a great conversation. I enjoyed him, so it's been lovely watching his career grow to put an understatement on it. But he's been so successful, so I just... I don't know. I just really enjoy him, so there you go. That's all.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
That's fine.

Larry Hyrb:
But I'm still playing that.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh, Tampa. You're a real Bucsman. You're a Bucs fan.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, for now. They shoot the cannons off there.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
They shoot the cannon off when they score a touchdown I think.

Larry Hyrb:
Right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I remember my mom going to an Eagles Tampa Bay game and calling me, and then it went off in the background. And it just the everliving daylights out of her.

Larry Hyrb:
Boom, boom.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yes, yes.

Larry Hyrb:
I do love when they try to dress up things like that. Anyway. Hey, speaking of Game Pass and games, let's talk about Drake Hollow. Have you seen this game? You haven't had a chance to play. We talked about it a moment ago.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah, no. The maker's the Flame in the Flood.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And I know that much. I haven't had the chance to play Drake Hollow yet, but tell me about it.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, you know what? We're going to do this. We're going to roll the launch trailer, and then when we come back, we're going to have an interview about Drake Hollow. And we'll talk to Forrest Dowling who's the game director. So let's watch the launch trailer right now. All right. That's the trailer for Drake Hollow. Joining me on the line right now is Forrest Dowling. Forrest Dowling, you are the man, the studio head responsible for this game. Great to see you today. How are you?

Forrest Dowling:
I'm doing great. It's great to be here.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, I've got to tell you first of all, I have to congratulate you on the launch. It was kind of a surprise. Everyone was like, "Hey, where'd this game come from?" I mean, I know you guys have been in preview for a little while but congratulations on the launch.

Forrest Dowling:
Thanks, yeah. It was pretty exciting to get to do a shadow drop and just sort of gather the whole team around, watch it get announced, and then immediately start looking at Twitter and watch people download the game, hop on the Discord, which was going wild.

Larry Hyrb:
Well again, that always feels great, and it's been well received. I want to talk a little bit about your team and the team that you've assembled for this because you guys have quite the pedigree. Tell us about yourself and your team over there.

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, so especially amongst the founders, we're largely former Triple A people. So we found it... Initially, when a rational game's closed, and I was... We found ourselves in Boston with a lot of talented developers and not a lot of jobs. So if you wanted to stick around, it was kind of start your own studio. Yep, yep. So I was the lead level designer on BioShock Infinite, and the team right now has a number of other former Triple A people. We have a gentleman who was the AI lead on Halo Two and Three, which, for Xbox fans, they might be familiar with that title. Our tech director came from years at NetherRealm working on Mortal Combat, and we've got some really talented people on the team too. The person who's responsible for all the animation that you see in Drake Hollow was previously a game play animator on God of War. So we're a small team, but we have some big titles in our past. And I just like working smaller, where everybody gets to have more responsibility and more creative control in recent years.

Larry Hyrb:
Now, I want to talk to you about the fact that people may look at this game, and it may look familiar how the different... It kind of feels similar because your studio came out with Flame in the Flood a little while ago, so this is the... I don't want to say it's a follow up, but it's your next title. So tell us about that journey from Flame in the Flood to Drake Hollow.

Forrest Dowling:
Sure. So actually, Drake Hollow did start as kind of a sequel to the Flame in the Flood. But for those who are familiar, Flame in the Flood's a survival game. It's single player. It's about traveling by raft down a procedurally generated river. And Drake Hollow is none of those things. So the process kind of went with, "Well, if we wanted to... Let's make a version 1.5 of Flame in the Flood, and let's fix the little things that bother us and just make a polished experience." And as we started doing that, we just started changing it more and more and more and more, to the point that it's just a completely different game. But it shares some survival game roots, but that's about it.

Larry Hyrb:
Tell us a little bit... I've got some screenshots here that we're going to flip through. Explain to us what we can expect with game play.

Forrest Dowling:
So it's sort of a mix of a village or city builder type game play with third person action adventure. So the loop is largely one in which you have a base, and you are taking care of these drakes, which are these little vegetable creatures that we're seeing in some of these images. And you need to build it up and take care of them. They have needs, and that's sort of the survival game play, where they need food and water and entertainment and a place to sleep. But to provide that stuff, you need all sorts of supplies and resources. So to gather them, you explore these procedurally generated world. Well, we should say dynamically generated. It's sort of a mix of prog gen and randomization. And you gather lots of resources, set up networks to carry them back to your camp, and then also, periodically, the creatures you see that you're fighting will raid your camp. And you need to defend it. So it's got a little bit of a base building, a little bit of tower defense, a little bit of exploration, and you can do it with your friends.

Larry Hyrb:
Now, what's interesting to me is you were a level designer. You talked about your past with BioShock Infinite. But with the past two games you've worked on, they've been procedural, which means, basically, the computer does it, and they're auto-generated.

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, yeah.

Larry Hyrb:
How does that... How do you as a level designer kind of rationalize that? Is it putting you out of a job, or does it make your job easier? Or how do you look at your approach for level designer?

Forrest Dowling:
Well, yeah. So for these games, they're actually really designed to be much less level design intensive than stuff I've worked on in the past. So first person shooter, I view as a very intensive level design environment in that everything about the space needs to work in a really specific way to support the game play. But also, it's really intensive just from a labor standpoint. So working with a small team, the Flame in the Flood was made by six people, and the core team on Drake Hollow was 11. Whereas even last generation for BioShock Infinite, I can't even count how many people it would take to work on a level. It's bigger than our whole team now would work on a single level then. So for me, it's been... I want to make a game that provides a lot of rich experiences for players and provides a lot of value for them. And if it's bottle necked by how many hallways and cover objects can I physically place, we're going to have a really hard time making a game that really provides that sort of experience for players. So for me, it made a lot of sense to not focus on level design but focus somewhat more on systems design and building great systems that people can interact with in a really deep way over time.

Larry Hyrb:
When you look at the Flame in the Flood and Drake Hollow, it feels like exploring the natural environment is really a common denominator there. Is that something that evolved from the Flame in the Flood, or is it kind of your hallmark for the studio? Tell me about that.

Forrest Dowling:
I don't know if it's fair to say it's a hallmark for the studio although even the next thing we're cooking up is wilderness as well. So maybe it is, and I didn't even realize it. We've been sort of accidentally doing that. But I think the wilderness really came about from the fact that this did start as sort of the Flame in the Flood 1.5, and the thing that you see that's similar is its islands in the case of Drake Hollow in ether, this sort of poisonous miasma, whereas the Flame in the Flood, it was in water. But, yeah. The sort of island structure was one of the earliest things that we came up with for this game, and it just seemed to fit the world well. Yeah. I don't know. I think it would be interesting to do something that's less naturalistic, but I really like sort of the flexibility that working in natural environments gives us. If nothing else, just to make a lot of game without a lot of people. Each region you explore in Drake Hollow is roughly three square kilometers, which is... That's a lot of space for essentially one or two level artists and a level designer for sure.

Larry Hyrb:
It's a lot of room to fill in, isn't it?

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, yeah. It sure is. It sure is.

Larry Hyrb:
I want to talk a little bit about cross play because there's some cooperative elements here, and you support cross play between Xbox and Windows 10. So tell us about what that experience is like. Is it drop in? Is it drop out? What are folks looking forward to here?

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, so it is drop in, drop out. The way it works is the person who's hosting the game, it's there save game. And you can invite your friends in to join in the fun. Now, resources and stuff you don't bring with you because that would imbalance the game and allow people to kind of cheese it a bit, but you do earn cosmetics, which are essentially sort of the growth that you have across games. So when you come in and play on your friend's game, even if they're the host, and it's not your save game, you might find a cool hat or a pair of boots or something. And then that's just part of your character, and you take it back to your own game with you. And you can basically play the whole game co-op. There's a little bit of tutorial right at the beginning that you need to get through before you can invite people, but then the whole thing works. And that's it. I mean, I think the difficulty ramps up a bit for sure when you've got more people and so does the speed and chaos. A lot of people I think like to play it solo in that it's a much more contemplative experience in that way. It's quieter. But other people prefer sort of the wildness of having four people all together. Yeah, that's basically how it works.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, and as we said, we talked about cross play. You can go from Xbox to Windows 10, so you've got that ability where you've got the mouse and keyboard folks on one side and the controller folks on the other. But in a way, that just melts away, and people want to have a good co-op experience. Right?

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, yeah. And we also are supporting cross save as well. So even if you are jumping between your own devices, you can take your game with you.

Larry Hyrb:
We love that. Now, one of the big, important parts, which I'm now going to mention, is the fact that it is on Game Pass and launched [inaudible 00:28:49] on Game Pass. Tell us about Game Pass and what that means to you as a developer.

Forrest Dowling:
Well, it certainly means we get a much bigger audience right away, which is pretty amazing. I actually tweeted about this. I don't know how much I could say about numbers or whatnot, but in the first weekend, in fact, the first 24 hours that the game was on Game Pass, more people played it than played Flame in the Flood in its first year.

Larry Hyrb:
Wow.

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, so it's very cool to just launch a game. I mean, shadow drop it as an indie without a tremendous amount of visibility and to see just tremendous numbers of people playing it and having fun right away is very cool.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah. I mean, because also, as you said, a lot of your team has worked on some of these titles. And those titles, the Triple A's, come with big marketing budgets and CG trailers and the hype and the onstage events. So there's a lot to it. It's a little different when you guys are kind of focused on creating the game, and then you kind of pull your heads up and go, "Oh, we've got to launch this. We've got to get going there." Right?

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah.

Larry Hyrb:
So that's got to be a great strategy, where you can just kind of drop it in. And again, using Game Pass, have this instant audience that is just kind of gobbling your game up.

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, yeah. It's very exciting for sure. And especially this year, it's not like we... We don't have an enormous budget for marketing, but we had lots of plans. And all of them went away as every event got canceled for the year. So when you're doing everything you can do be scrappy and to get people to notice you, it's certainly nice to have... In spite of the fact that we didn't have any of the events that we wanted to along the way, that we can launch and have such a big audience immediately is really exciting.

Larry Hyrb:
Let's talk about that for a second because it's been a heck of an eight, nine months since we've been in this COVID situation. How has that affected you guys as a studio? I mean, because you are a small team, so I assume you're all still working remotely. Has that really helped you guys to focus, or have there been any barriers there?

Forrest Dowling:
I mean, it's certainly harder, especially where we are right now. The Xbox version is out, and we're trying to cert the PC version. And we're dealing with triaging bugs that are happening from players. You get many thousands of people playing, and you're like, "Oh, new things that we never saw before." And doing all this remote... I've always done this in an office with people in the past, and there's a kinetic energy to sort of how quickly you're moving back and forth with problem solving. So it's a bit of a bummer right now. But overall, it hasn't been bad for us. So we do work out of an office normally, but we always did a split thing where people could work from home three days a week. And we'd just ask people to be in a couple days a week. So when it was time to fully work from home, we were pretty ready to handle it.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, you guys were already there.

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah. So for me, the biggest bummer was just not getting to go to events and meet people and meet fans and whatnot, which is always a really energizing thing to do leading up to launch. We were really excited to go to EGX, to go to E3, to go to GDC and show stuff there, so that's been sort of the big bummer.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, at least, fortunately, you guys have a plug into Game Pass. And as you said, get an instant audience, large audience immediately. It's also helpful when you have a game like yours on Game Pass which is approachable, and it's got co-op where you can tell your friends who already have Game Pass, "Hey, go download this, and let's play co-op." The barrier to entry is kind of lowered significantly, isn't it?

Forrest Dowling:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think even more so in... I don't have a specific date yet, but once the PC version is out, you won't even need an Xbox. You can just... As long as you've got a decent PC...

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, away you go.

Forrest Dowling:
Yeah, exactly.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, I appreciate it. I think folks should really check it out. Drake Hollow, out now on Xbox Game Pass. Forrest Dowling, studio and creative director at the Molasses Flood. I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. I'm glad you guys have had success, and congratulations on [inaudible 00:32:46] the game. And we're looking forward to hearing more updates from you in the future. Thank you.

Forrest Dowling:
Great. Thanks so much. Thanks for your time.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Thank you so much. Forrest Dowling joining us to talk all about Drake Hollow, part of Xbox Game Pass. I had no idea that he had worked on BioShock Infinite as well. It's a small industry there.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, they had a lot. [crosstalk 00:33:03] got a lot of different games. I mean, that's the beauty. I was talking to him before we recorded, and he's out in Boston, which is where Irrational was. There's not enough game development out there in Boston. It bums me out because I used to back there and used to, as you and I know, would love going around PAX and going to visit. I went to Irrational a few times, so I just wish... We need more game development in Boston, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I know you like any opportunity to go back there and get some chowder. Chowder, chowder.

Larry Hyrb:
Chowder, chowder, chowder.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
There's no R in that word.

Larry Hyrb:
It's chowder. All right. What else we got here?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So I think we [crosstalk 00:33:36] at the end of last week. Yeah. So gamescom had it. There was a stream that [inaudible 00:33:41] led, and they got some awards there. And I just want to congratulate Tell Me Why for winning best Xbox game, so congrats to Dontnod. You should be able to play chapter two now by the time you hear this, and chapter three will be hitting next week on the 10th of September.

Larry Hyrb:
Here it is. Right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So I kind of like how they're doing that sort of rolling release for Tell Me Why also.

Larry Hyrb:
And it's predictable. It's predictable. It's like, "Hey, next week, next week, next week." So it doesn't require a lot.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Not the storyline.

Larry Hyrb:
Right, right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Just the release gauge.

Larry Hyrb:
The release gauge, yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And of course, that's available on Xbox Game Pass. It drops at nine AM on those Thursdays.

Larry Hyrb:
Noted.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
So if you're looking for chapter three, you want the thrilling conclusion. Well, that'll be nine AM Pacific.

Larry Hyrb:
The thrilling conclusion.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
[crosstalk 00:34:27] So we talked Game Stop. Let's talk TGS now. Tokyo Game Show.

Larry Hyrb:
You and I have not been in a decade.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Last time I was at Tokyo Game Show, it was... Yeah, it was 10 years ago. I think it was 2010.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, I think it was 2009 or 2010 was my last one.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It's been a while. I definitely miss that. Here's the thing about Tokyo Game Show. It tends to be very focused on the Japanese market. It is not necessarily a place where you go to launch sort of international... Used as a platform for international news. I can tell you Xbox's presence at Tokyo Game Show, that's how you should think about it. This is focused on the Japanese consumer. I can tell you it's going to be a celebration of Japanese game creators. You're going to hear the latest updates coming to Microsoft Flight Simulator for Xbox Game Pass Windows 10 on PC. We're going to be talking about the Japanese Minecraft creator community. It's going to be a review of some things we've already talked about, but the key thing is no next gen news. You're not going to be... Don't stay up at three in the morning. By the way, this broadcast is all in Japanese, so don't really quickly try and learn Japanese and wake up at three in the morning to watch this broadcast. You're not going to find out new information on Xbox series X.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, that's not what it's all about.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
We just want to set the expectations for you appropriately. This is really intended for folks in Japan to watch this.

Larry Hyrb:
Good. That's good to know. What else you got for me? There's a lot going on around the world for Xbox, so it's great that if you want to check some things out, just head over to Xbox Wire.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah, that's what we do. We have Xbox Wire sites in Germany, in France, Latin America, and Brazil. Brazil is pretty recent as well.

Larry Hyrb:
Brazil recently launched, so if you want to get some native language. If you're in Brazil, and you're looking for some native language news or whatever.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
In Portuguese. In Portuguese.

Larry Hyrb:
Portuguese.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yes.

Larry Hyrb:
I know that.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Well, you had just... Show off. A couple things I just want to point out coming out next week. Outer Worlds: Peril on Gorgon, that comes out on September 9th.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, I'm going to try to get an interview with somebody about that because I really want to see what that's going to be.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I loved Outer Worlds. It's one of my top two or three favorite games of last year. So to play more, to have a nice, meaty expansion here, I'm very much looking forward to going back into the game because I haven't played it in about a year. But it definitely was approachable enough that I think I might be able to just jump right in although I expect there's probably a bunch of things in my inventory, and I'm like, "What did that do again? Should I eat that? I probably shouldn't eat that."

Larry Hyrb:
Right, right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And then I don't know if you see also Halo Infinite and Monster Energy announced a deal this week. So you're actually going to start...

Larry Hyrb:
I did see that. Tell us about that.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. Well, you're going to start seeing some cans out there in the marketplace, wherever you buy your... Wherever finer energy drinks are sold. And they're going to be emblazoned with Master Chief, so there's all kinds of stuff that are on the cans. If you buy a case, you get a code that unlocks these double XP boosts for the game. You can earn up to 60 hours of double XP boosts. Obviously, you can't play the game now. It's coming out in 2021, but just bank them. Hold onto the code, take a picture of the code, and you'll be able to use that when Halo Infinite starts. If you see those cans on the shelf, you should be like, "Wait, what's going on?"

Larry Hyrb:
Get them.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Hold onto them. That will double your XP down the line.

Larry Hyrb:
Pick them up.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. And that is pretty much it for the news. I just want to also... I don't know if... Where we're at, school is starting right now. In fact, my kid is, as we speak, learning or...

Larry Hyrb:
Your daughter.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
She should be learning hopefully. I don't know what they're doing over there. But the door is shut, and it's quiet. I'm pretty happy with that. But I just noticed there's a...

Larry Hyrb:
That's a win.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
You took the win. A new game just came out. I'm looking on majornelson.com. Educational games for kids is now available for Xbox One.

Larry Hyrb:
That's right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It's only 12 bucks, so it's got a bunch of different types of games. Logic games, memory games, math games, knowledge games. So maybe if school hasn't started back up, it might be something that is interesting for your kids to do.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, the other thing that we talked about, Game Pass and some of the games coming. We've got the JackBox Party Pack. Those are good games also to maybe not so much learning, but there's definitely a lot of fun to be had. I'll tell you that. But, yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And you know what? Those are great party games, but you could do those remotely too.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
You can just pass the code around, and you can stream out what you're seeing on your platform. Or you could just put it out via [crosstalk 00:38:57] or something.

Larry Hyrb:
I used to do that. Remember, we used to do that here? We would stream out because we used to do a few live shows now and then. But, yeah. I'd love to do that again. I'd love to get you and me and a few of the other [crosstalk 00:39:08] folks on.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
That would be a great time. Why don't we do that?

Larry Hyrb:
Play JackBox.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It would be a fun Saturday night activity.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, you're right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Not this weekend. I'm going out of town this weekend. I'm trying to take advantage of the Labor Day.

Larry Hyrb:
Where are you going?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
What's Labor Day? We haven't gone anywhere. We haven't done anything. We're driving to Oregon. It's one state down. I can tell you I haven't been to Oregon since I moved up here.

Larry Hyrb:
I have.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I had to drive from California to Washington. You have to drive through Oregon. I did that one time. I was like, "Oh, this is great. Portland, I really love it. I'm going to be back so much."

Larry Hyrb:
Seven years later...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Seven years later, I'm going back. So they've got a lot of coastline. The weather's nice, so we're going to just sort of drive down and have a couple days I think at the beach. [inaudible 00:39:52] some withdrawal. Play some xCloud beta or something like that while I'm [crosstalk 00:39:57]

Larry Hyrb:
Well, be careful out there. I want you to be careful.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
What? About what?

Larry Hyrb:
We're still in a pandemic, mister.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Oh. Well, I mean, I'm not going to be making any friends.

Larry Hyrb:
Are you mister mask under the nose, or are you mister mask over the nose?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
No. When I see people do that, I'm like, "You're defeating the purpose."

Larry Hyrb:
Yes.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
No. I've got actually... I don't have it here with me. I could run upstairs, but I've got the new... I'm just going to do it. Hold on. You can vamp.

Larry Hyrb:
All right.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
This is what you're good at.

Larry Hyrb:
Here, I'll show you guys what we're... Well, I wanted to show you guys one of the projects I'm working on. This is my... I'm working on Home Assistant, which is a home automation project here. So you can kind of see I've been putting some things together here. It's not done yet, but I'm starting to assemble it. So we'll... Hold on. Where did you get that, Jeffrey?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Look at this.

Larry Hyrb:
Look at that.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. I don't know how you well you can talk, but this is a mask. I got it at gear.xbox.com.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
For every one of these you buy, I believe they... I don't want to quote it, but I believe there's some sort of donation that happens. So I bought one for myself and one for my daughter as well. And a lot of the masks that I have, they're really small. And I've got quite a schnoz, and this actually... Well, first of all, it covers my whole giant face, which is great.

Larry Hyrb:
Right. And your nose fits under there.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
But it also has... My nose fits under there. It also has that sort of moldable piece here.

Larry Hyrb:
That metal piece? Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It keeps it in place. And when it has that, it stops it from fogging up your glasses. I wear sunglasses if I'm outside, so it makes a statement. It keeps people safe.

Larry Hyrb:
Gear.xbox.com.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
It does... Why not?

Larry Hyrb:
Why not?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Why not? There's a lot of reasons why you should. There's no good reason why not.

Larry Hyrb:
Well, that's a good luck. Well, it's a funny because I was going to get one of those. And I'm sure I'll get one. But when I go out with my mask on, I actually like it because I'm kind of incognito.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
That's funny. I go out. I've got my mask on, my sunglasses, my headphones if I'm listening to a podcast, a hat on.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I could be anybody. I feel like I'm in the Watch Dogs.

Larry Hyrb:
Right, that's true. When you stepped away for a moment, we were kind of ending the show. I was showing some folks my home automation project, Jeffrey. Take a look at this. So this is my dashboard I built for all the different things in my house, and you can kind of go through here and turn different things on and off. And I have all these lights. You seem to be interested.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I have no idea what I'm looking at, but this seems just fascinating. This looks like mission control.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, there's a lot of... It's funny, so I've been working on this project. I get the weather. I can turn the deck lights on and off. I can turn the lights all around the house on and off.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
You know what? Over the weekend... I can't remember if it was Saturday or Sunday night. I was like, "We're playing Apex. Are you coming?" And you were like, "No, I've got projects I've got to do."

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And I didn't really respect that, but I guess this... At least you were telling the truth.

Larry Hyrb:
I'm in here. I'm writing code. I'm doing all sorts of stuff. I mean, I'm having a good time with this, so it's kind of cool.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I'm working on my KDR. You're better than I am.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, you're working on your KDR, and I'm building, seeing what the light is in my bathroom. Does this one work? Actually...

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
What does your bookcase do? Oh, it has a light on it. These are all the lights.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah. For instance, let's go here. We'll go here. I can shut my studio lights off. See? See, they're going off. You can't see, but they're off.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
I can't see because the shot's off. Yeah. Turn them back on.

Larry Hyrb:
So anyway, I've got a whole bunch. I've got some hue lights in here and some other stuff, so that's... I'm slowly becoming... I've had some stuff home automated, but I'm really upping it where it's like, "Hey, if it's darker out, the lights will automatically come on instead of having things time based." See? I told you. I work on projects.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
There was a time where we all thought in the year 2020, we'd have flying cars. Instead, we're showing off masks, and you have a different way to flick your light switch but with a mouse. Where did we go wrong? Where did we go wrong?

Larry Hyrb:
Here we are. This is what we're doing. Anyway, so you have a nice weekend wherever you're going and be safe out there.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Thank you. I'll be there.

Larry Hyrb:
So we'll come back next week. We've got a couple of interviews we're lining up for next week. You guys know how to find us. If you're interested in sharing feedback, how do they do that, Jeffrey?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Well, they can go to... Do you still have your email address?

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Let's forget about that.

Larry Hyrb:
[email protected]

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
[email protected] Yeah.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
You haven't promoted that in a while. But obviously, for good news, @majornelson.com. For complaints, @jeffrubenstein on Twitter. And make sure you like and subscribe as well on YouTube. And you know what? If you're on a podcast service, please leave a review.

Larry Hyrb:
Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
We'd like to read them.

Larry Hyrb:
And you can also email us as well. I mean, I know that some folks have commented. I've got the audio levels now dialed in because we're trying to get the video work and the audio work and all this other stuff, the lighting work. Jeff, you're looking good as always. Your mic sounds great, so thank you.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Yeah. Thanks to the good folks at Elgato for hooking up the wave three.

Larry Hyrb:
So there you go. All right. We'll see you guys next week. Have fun. Play fair. File feedback. Send a complaint to Jeffrey. And any final words, Jeff?

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
And wear a mask.

Larry Hyrb:
And wear a mask.

Jeffrey Rubenstein:
Thank you, yeah.

Larry Hyrb:
All right, gang. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye everybody.