Lead Producer, Ubisoft Toronto: Watch Dogs Legion
Larry Hryb: Hi Larry Hryb, Xbox Live's Major Nelson. Here we go, it's finally here, launch week. I can't believe we're finally here, but we are. Many of you have your Xbox Series X and S and what I need to do right now is hit the button because this is a special episode. What? There he is!
Jeff Rubenstein: Wow, what is that?
Larry Hryb: Oh, you know.
Jeff Rubenstein: You're slowly but surely becoming a real technical director here, and I think we're going to have full CG, this is going to be, I'm going to be a V-tuber, I think, by the end of the year. Do you know what that is?
Larry Hryb: I do know what that is.
Jeff Rubenstein: It's just going to be complete, I'll be somebody else, and you know what?
Larry Hryb: You're going to be an amalgamate. We're going to get Laura back to write the AI for Jeff, which she can probably do in her spare time [crosstalk 00:00:46] it's not complicated.
Jeff Rubenstein: I mean, for her it's not. For us, we don't know what's going on.
Larry Hryb: But anyway, it's good to see you. We did the launch, congratulations on launch, and right off the bat, I just want to tell everybody, thank you for your support. Look at you. Where'd you get that?
Jeff Rubenstein: Do you remember while we were doing our launch stream, there was those glasses sitting on the table, and-
Larry Hryb: Oh, you nicked one?
Jeff Rubenstein: Well, I don't know, I think I said on air, "I've got to get these glasses." Or maybe right before we went on air, and I was going to leave them. We were all wearing masks. Well, we couldn't while we were on air, but while we weren't, but all the crew was. So there was a delightful stage manager with pinkish, purplish hair, and she just kept bringing me water in this beautiful glass, and at the end she handed me the glass, and I was like, "Well, that's good."
Larry Hryb: That's a nice glass.
Jeff Rubenstein: I mean, they would've had to burn it because it's sanitary. Really beautiful. So they sell it on gear.xbox.com.
Larry Hryb: So that's part of the gear collection.
Jeff Rubenstein: Along with this crew shirt that I love. I really love the new winter gear collection.
Larry Hryb: See, here's the deal, here's the deal. You're kind of repping all the new gear stuff. This was the original gear store.
Jeff Rubenstein: You know, it's where we started, where we're at.
Larry Hryb: Wait a minute, are you saying I'm obsolete? Is that what you're doing?
Jeff Rubenstein: I'm just saying you're part of the meme and let's just go with it.
Larry Hryb: But quick note. Like I said before I brought Jeff in, thanks to everybody that's supporting us, Xbox Series X and S. We know that there's a lot of people that want to get their hands on the console. We're making them as fast as we can, we're getting them over here as fast as we can, and I know that I see my Twitter feed of, "Don't you think I want to buy," yes, I know you want to buy one. We're working on it. So we're going to be replenishing retail frequently in the coming weeks and months, so stay tuned.
Jeff Rubenstein: And thanks to everyone who's been tagging us in, as the FedEx, or UPS, or the OnTrac truck, or the USPS, whoever, rolls up to your door with the box.
Larry Hryb: Or your mom, or your dad, or your wife, or your boyfriend, or your husband, or whatever.
Jeff Rubenstein: Whomever, and it's like, "We got it!" And because we can't be together, because this is a year where we have to see you digitally and not directly, which hurts. I'm not going to lie, that's a bummer.
Larry Hryb: The first time Jeff and I were at the office was during the shoot earlier this week, together.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah, and it was cool even though we were six feet apart and talking to each other through layers of fabric and/or plexiglass, but at least you all tagging us and sharing your joy, that has made it real for us, so thank you so much, and we hope you enjoy it as much as we have enjoyed... The two of us being a very small part, we get to speak on behalf of a team of literally thousands that are everywhere from designers of both hardware, and gaming, and controllers-
Larry Hryb: Engineers, graphic designers, hardware engineers, software engineers, lawyers.
Jeff Rubenstein: Marketing, production, yeah.
Larry Hryb: Lots of lawyers.
Jeff Rubenstein: Everything. So we can take none of that credit, but we do share in the joy, and thank you so much.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, yeah, we're talking, it's been busy. Later on in the show, I've got one of the producers from Watch Dogs to come by, which is a game that you can see right here on my screen, that I'm playing a lot of.
Jeff Rubenstein: You had the Watch Dogs segment in the livestream, and that was sort of coveted. Make no mistake, these things are not assigned randomly. It was like, "Oh, I'm doing Yakuza," [crosstalk 00:04:09] never thought anyone else is going to take it.
Larry Hryb: No, no, if you remember, I originally had Yakuza and I said, "I can't do this segment, because you have played so much of the game I need you to give," so there's a little bit of horse trading that goes on.
Jeff Rubenstein: Right, right.
Larry Hryb: Because we want to make sure the right person is doing the right segment. I will never do a segment for a game that I'm not that good at, or don't really understanding, or frankly, haven't played a lot of.
Jeff Rubenstein: Right. And my point is, for you, it was Watch Dogs.
Larry Hryb: Yeah.
Jeff Rubenstein: Out of all those games, that's the one you spent, god, you spent probably dozens of hours on it, right? You're way ahead-
Larry Hryb: Already in the past week and a half.
Jeff Rubenstein: And so that was a really cool segment. They've done amazing things, Ubisoft has done amazing things with the raytracing that has-
Larry Hryb: We're going to do a little bit of demo later, we're going to talk about all the characters, it's really kind of cool.
Jeff Rubenstein: We don't need to talk any further about it.
Larry Hryb: Don't do it Jeffrey [crosstalk 00:04:54] you know what we can talk about is Assassin's Creed, which I know you're playing, which looks amazing on Series X and S, right?
Jeff Rubenstein: It really does. So I'm doing, and I got to speak with the team up at Ubisoft Montreal, Jessica, and Julian, and the whole time we're just watching the video and it looks so good. It is, I've played, and beaten every Assassin's Creed game, mainline Assassin's Creed game, with the exception, I think, of Unity, so that's a lot. That's double digits because they release pretty often, and I've kind of always made the joke that the Ubisoft, the Assassin's Creed franchise is kind of like, and you're just going to look at me like, "What the heck are you talking about?" But like the Eagles after a bye week. During the Andy Reid era, 15 years, they did not lose after a bye week. And-
Larry Hryb: What's that sound?
Jeff Rubenstein: And whenever-
Larry Hryb: That's the sound of our listeners and our viewers going, "What the hell is he talking about?"
Jeff Rubenstein: What is he talking about, but if you know, you know, and Philly's in the spotlight right now.
Larry Hryb: For a lot of reasons.
Jeff Rubenstein: There has been a couple of times, only a couple of times, where there's been a break between two Assassin's Creed games. Between Assassin's Creed one and Assassin's Creed two, there was a one year break. Assassin's Creed two comes out, many consider that to be the best one. There was a break before Origins, and that one converted, that's when the game really took on this more of an action RPG feel. And Origins, the one in Egypt with Bayek, excellent, excellent game. And I did love Odyssey, that almost, you know, the exception that proved the rule or something, but there's been a break between Odyssey and Valhalla, and I think you're going to see where that extra time went because man, it looks really good. And Assassin's Creed at 60 frames per second for the first time is just, the game feels smoother, it looks beautiful in the synchronization points, and your raven is flying around and you're seeing that, it just looks amazing.
Larry Hryb: Ah, so good.
Jeff Rubenstein: It's really fun. Eivor's great. The pro tip that I got out of the developer, so you get to choose, much like with Odyssey, you can choose if you want to be a male or female assassin, and the other character's worked in really well. By the way, Odyssey, you pick Kassandra, or we just don't talk, we have nothing to talk about.
Larry Hryb: Right.
Jeff Rubenstein: In this game, you can, there's three choices. You can pick the male, Eivor, the female Eivor, or you can do that the animus chooses, and certain segments are going to be-
Larry Hryb: The animus chooses.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yes. Because I guess in the story, they're reconstruction DNA from thousand year old bones, and so there's some corruption and it's not very clear. Anyway, I was told, because both the actors are apparently very strong, that that is a good way to do it and see everything that the game has to offer.
Larry Hryb: All right.
Jeff Rubenstein: It's what they said, and they made the game, so they would know.
Larry Hryb: Then they know.
Jeff Rubenstein: They know. It's what they do.
Larry Hryb: Here we are.
Jeff Rubenstein: I can't believe it. It's been, how many weeks have we sat here? And we've been like, "Nine weeks to go!" Or, "Four weeks to go!"
Larry Hryb: I don't like to be that guy, Jeff, but can we flex for a little bit?
Jeff Rubenstein: Go on. Yes, what is that?
Larry Hryb: You know what this is. Each one of the Xbox team members got a nice little note for Project Scarlett, right?
Jeff Rubenstein: So why don't you talk about what we're seeing here. What that is.
Larry Hryb: So this is a note, each one of us at Xbox got a little gift from Phil and the entire executive team, and let me show you what that is. This is, it's got a little thing here, a little bag, but this is our special launch controller, and this one is-
Jeff Rubenstein: Go full screen, they don't need to see me, they need to see that.
Larry Hryb: Let me got full screen, you're right. Let me go. Give me a second because I'm running the show here. This is the controller right here.
Jeff Rubenstein: That is beautiful.
Larry Hryb: And this is only for members of the Xbox team that worked on Project Scarlett. Of course Project Scarlett is Xbox Series X and Series S, and if you notice Jeff, did you notice the dates?
Jeff Rubenstein: Some dates there, yeah. And some of those are pretty familiar.
Larry Hryb: Those dates are the launches of previous consoles, and important moments in the Xbox universe. So we've got this beautiful controller, this awesome customized controller holder, you can kind of see that there.
Jeff Rubenstein: It's microfiber Larry.
Larry Hryb: And this is thank you, and this is a note from Phil, and a lot of folks don't know what this is. You know what it is.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah, that's right, talk about it.
Larry Hryb: You know what it is.
Jeff Rubenstein: I do, yeah.
Larry Hryb: So this is, at the very top here, some people call it a, let me flip it over, some people call it a chip, but what that is, and I wish, had I known I was going to do this, I would be better prepared, but at Microsoft, whenever we ship a product, whenever there's a big moment and a big release, we get what's called a ship it gift, and this is a little plaque, that's a ship it gift, but it's a ship it plaque and that goes on a larger, it depends how long you've been [crosstalk 00:09:48]
Jeff Rubenstein: Like a glass thing.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, some of them are glass. I have one of the original one that's stone. So you put it on there and so you have this mosaic, how's that for a right proper term? Mosaic of all the different products you've launched. I should show it on a future show, I've got mine in my other office.
Jeff Rubenstein: Well we have a digital version of that too, and that's on our profile, which is pretty cool, and I only have a couple of these, so they definitely mean a lot. I don't know if it's in the shot, it might not be in the shot.
Larry Hryb: Let me bring you, hold on a second, give me a second, and I'll bring you full screen as soon as I figure it out here, because I think you're absolutely right, that is something that... Where are you? Here you are. Bring it up, here you go.
Jeff Rubenstein: There we go. All right, you can kind of almost see me, but okay, see that, you can see the part of my room that's a mess. It's very carefully curated, but you can see that red chip is scarlet, and that is our virtual ship gift. The logo is the same as it was on that little, the ship it chip that Larry showed. Next to that was working on Scorpio, and then Xbox One. So I have three of those in real life, and I've got three of those on my profile, and it's little things. Sometimes seeing your name in the credits, or whatever, that makes those long days... That, and seeing your tweets make the long days sort of evaporate [crosstalk 00:11:10]
Larry Hryb: Should I flex even further?
Jeff Rubenstein: Go on Larry.
Larry Hryb: I hate doing this.
Jeff Rubenstein: Ooh, that's the flex right there. Oh my, look at all that. I've got three, you've got seven.
Larry Hryb: So the little guys in the lower left hand corner, you can see 16, how many years. Frankly the-
Jeff Rubenstein: Also, 5.6 million followers.
Larry Hryb: This is on my Xbox Live profile, so yeah, it's very... So when Jeff and I play, this 5.6 million followers have the ability to join our games, and you know what? They do, which is awesome. But you can kind of see all of the, in the lower left hand corner, the Scorpio, the X Scorpio, which was the Xbox 1X there, and the whole series of them. So we've done a lot of products there Jeff, so it's been kind of fun, hasn't it?
Jeff Rubenstein: You know, I feel like we should be playing graduation, or through the years, or something like that.
Larry Hryb: This is just the beginning.
Jeff Rubenstein: It's true.
Larry Hryb: It's the beginning of this new generation. Phil has talked about-
Jeff Rubenstein: This is perfect for graduation. It's like every cliché graduation speech is like, "This commencement-"
Larry Hryb: You know what? I have a great place for you to give a speech here, are you ready?
Jeff Rubenstein: What?
Larry Hryb: We'll go full screen.
Jeff Rubenstein: I don't know what's going to happen here.
Larry Hryb: Full screen. Maybe this isn't the right place for you to give a speech.
Jeff Rubenstein: Oh my god. If you superimpose me in... Look, I can only name one landscaper in the Philadelphia area, and they would get my business, I guess, because I can name them. I can name them off hand.
Larry Hryb: Sorry, I totally forgot I had that ready to go.
Jeff Rubenstein: At some point you... Yeah, you completely forgot. You've been teeing that one up. What were we talking about? Do we have a guest today?
Larry Hryb: We do. We should take a break here and do a guest. So Watch Dogs, now out. It's been out, but of course if you're on Xbox Series X or S through the magic of smart delivery, you'll get an automatic upgrade. It'll look better than ever before on your new hardware, and let's learn more about that Jeff. Shall we do that?
Jeff Rubenstein: We should do that because you're horribly out of focus, let's get you out of there.
Larry Hryb: Okay, all right, here we go. All right. Those of you who follow me on Xbox Live, and watch my profile, know, in fact you can see it right here. Right here on my console. One of the games that I've been playing a lot of on my Xbox Series S and X, is Watch Dog Legions, and I'm really excited to bring Sean in here. Sean Crooks, you're like the lead producer for Watch Dogs. Thank you for joining me.
Sean Crooks: It's a pleasure. Yes I am, and congratulations on your launch!
Larry Hryb: Well likewise, congratulations on your launch because you guys had a launch recently, and then through the magic of Xbox Series X and S and smart delivery, people have been really enjoying Watch Dogs on their new console. So thank you for coming along on that journey with us. It's been amazing.
Sean Crooks: Thank you very much, it's a pleasure.
Larry Hryb: Now let's talk about the game. This is an incredible game that has come out. This is a third in the series. You've worked on some of the previous ones. Tell us a little bit about what we can expect with this Watch Dogs. And I actually have my Xbox Series S plugged in here, and we're going to show you my character and a little bit of the tech tree in just a moment, but tell us what we can expect from the game.
Sean Crooks: So the idea originally was looking at the previous Watch Dogs titles and we had the idea of the profiler card, which told you a little bit about who the character was and what their life was, but back then Clint was looking at this game going, "What if that was actually real, and what if that all actually happened?" And that's kind of what sparked off all of the play as anyone idea, the idea that everyone in the city is individual, they're real, they have their own lives, they have their own abilities, and those profile accounts mean something, and if you pay attention to them, it can change your entire game play experience. So that's kind of the foundation of where play as anyone came from.
Larry Hryb: In fact, I want to kind of show this right here because here are... I mean, this is my game right here, I don't want to shock them, but you can kind of profile them right there, and see what they are, and you need to go through, and some of these people you can add, and recruit them. And again, I don't want to show too much of any spoilers here, but there's a lot going on there. This is a living, breathing city. It feels so alive, and there's, it feels like thousands of... My character just got punched, I've got to pause it. That's the beauty of the game, things are happening. You said everybody kind of has all the characters, whether you're playing them, or kind of running into them in the universe, they have a back story, right?
Sean Crooks: That's it. Everyone has kind of a life that you can kind of profile, look into and sort of investigate, and everyone has their backstories, everyone has their secrets, and the crazy part is all of this is connected. So say you hire an operative in your team, you can easily accidentally bump into their friends, their family. Maybe you bump into a family member that's being blackmailed that you help. All of these little things can kind of start to unwind as you look at the profile of people. And you can also unlock a cool tool called the deep profiler, which allows you to delve into an individual and look at all their connections, and it's a very useful tool also to help recruit people who maybe aren't DedSec fans yet.
Larry Hryb: Now I want to point this out. Let me go back to game play here because... So here's my character and we're going to go over to, I'm going to skip past the missions because I don't want to do any spoilers, but if we go over to the tech, this is kind of the tech tree. This is the profiler, the deep profiler that you need to unlock, because as you said, this something you can unlock as you go through the game. I didn't unlock this right away Sean, and I was kind of dumb. I should've unlocked this right at the top because I have a feeling it probably would've helped out immensely because there's certain things, certain characters I was looking for, but I think one of the tips would be unlock that early, right?
Sean Crooks: Yeah, so basically the idea was to get people to be a bit more comfortable with recruiting people on the street and getting used to how play as anyone works and looking for abilities that they would like. And then ease them into the deep profiler because the deep profiler, it's a rabbit hole of, "Ooh, what if? What if? What if?" You could start going really, really deep if you want. [inaudible 00:17:13] connections, letting people out of hospital and getting their treatments paid for, getting them free from police stations, helping them with debt, or a blackmailer. So you can really delve really, really deep into people's lives, their schedules, and what's currently happening with them and use that as a way to, I guess, make them like you and DedSec better, and join the cause.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, that's one thing I know. In fact, I was doing this side mission the other evening, and I don't know, somebody was being held hostage, or I don't remember exactly what it was, but I released them, and it turns out they were, to your point, they were connected to one of my characters that was in my crew, and I was like, "Oh, this is great." So you're right, it feels, everything's always... Just like we always talk about how the world is so small. Before we started recording, you said, "Hey, a friend of yours says hello." That's the way it is in Watch Dogs. Everybody kind of knows everybody who knows somebody who knows somebody else, and you want to help people, right?
Sean Crooks: That's it, and they all come back to you in some way, which is really cool. In certain circumstances, you might go to a hospital and find out that you can release, someone you're already trying to recruit, you can release their mother, and you do that and that person immediately is super happy to join DedSec. You're like, "Oh, I'm quite happy I just found that person's mother and that sped up that recruitment.
But the reverse can also happen, right? So you have to be very careful. A couple of times I've maybe accidentally hit someone with the car, and I've regretted it. They've become particularly against DedSec and found me and took their revenge, so you also have to be careful. I think it's the first time in a game where I've been also cautious about my driving.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, that is... Well, so there's a couple of things that you've mentioned, because that happened to me, and this really isn't a spoiler because part of the game environment, and some of the tools you have are the drones. There's cargo drones and what not, and in fact, we can kind of see a little bit of them in the tech tree over here. And this is areas that I've invested in, the riot drone, and the parcel drone, and the CT... Anyway, there's a bunch of different drones, and I noticed that as I was going through, I saw somebody that was a drone expert, so I was like, "I've got to recruit them!"
So I happened to chase them down, and I don't know exactly what happened, officer, but I ended up hitting them, and now I'm trying to track them down, and now they've [inaudible 00:19:29] and they hate DedSec, so I can't get them because every time I go up to them, I'm like, "Hey, do you want to join?" Bam! They hit me. So yeah, you have to be real careful.
Sean Crooks: That's it. But also, that's where the profiler comes in. As long as they're not an adversary, if they're simply just pretty mad at you, you can kind of turn them around once you help out them or their family, they can be swung back to the cause, but if you become an adversary, they're a lost cause, and actually they can cause you even more grief. You may see them suddenly pop up a lot more often in your combat sequences if they're an adversary. They'll find ways to inject themselves in your play experience and give you pain if you make them adversaries.
Larry Hryb: And this is, can I show? I want to show. This is my drone expert right here. You have not seen this yet. So this is mine, and you can see dislikes DedSec right here, but now I have this deep profile at the bottom, can I? I'm going to show this and I'll let you explain it. So you hit deep profile, now this is amazing. Tell us what we're looking at here.
Sean Crooks: So imagine this is someone you wanted to recruit. You're starting to see what their day looks like. And the cool thing is actually, if you start messing around with them in the street, their day will actually change. What they're actually doing right now will actually be modified, if you've actually changed the scenario that's happening right now. So you can see their partying, they're going to sleep. If they go home, if you follow them, you'll actually follow them to their home. They'll enter the door and go to sleep, and they'll get up out of that door the next morning at the right time. You'll follow them to the pub, if they say they're drinking with a friend, you can actually meet their friend and profile who that friend is and that friend will say it's also a friend of this person, and that person may also have their issues.
And something cool we would always do in dev that was almost a competition between some of the directors, we called it a two or a three or a four for one. Could you find that sweet one person that if you helped them, were connected to so many people you'd already saved you could get four or five operatives in one shot, right?
Larry Hryb: Yeah.
Sean Crooks: Because it's a friend of a one and mother of another-
Larry Hryb: Somebody's brother. [crosstalk 00:21:18]
Sean Crooks: Work colleague of another. And we'd go, "Okay, so if we just go here and do that and do that, can we get," and it's like all of a sudden you've got an entire team filled with characters and you managed to get four or five people in one good action. So some of the little challenges there too to try.
Larry Hryb: The other thing I want to point out is that I just showed a little, you saw kind of a peak at some of my operatives. It's dynamic for everybody. Certainly you, anybody, you Sean, or anybody watching this may find a drone expert, but they may look and be, they may be male, they may be female, they may be who knows. It's all completely random individual to the game, right Sean?
Sean Crooks: That's it. We kind of look in some ways as people in the world. Some people are more average, maybe you don't want them on your team, or maybe you do because they look amazing and they've got some really cool clothes and you like their style, and you want that, and that's fine. But also, you can find some rarer characters in the world, and by rarity, it's not always reduced chances to spawn, we also use real world logic. So for example, an EMT can run around with their shock paddles and do some crazy stuff with their shock paddles, and places you'd expect to find an EMT in real life, that's where you should look. Look for ambulances driving down the street, find hospitals. So also just understanding real world logic and looking for places like that.
I think we have some [medical 00:22:34] fighters that train in parks. You'll see them regularly train in parks, and it will be in their schedule that they're training in the park. It's a good place to pick up medical boxes. So if you try to understand in real life where you expect these people to be, and you go there in the game, you can start to find some cool characters. A lot of I wonder ifs and you go there and the game says yes.
Larry Hryb: Yeah. So that's one of the tips is open up the deep, don't make the mistake I did when you play the game, open up the deep profile. Do it right now. That's what you should do. The other thing I want to talk about is just the look of the game. One thing you guys have been praised is right now this is running out of my Xbox Series S because I happen to have that plugged into my recording outfit here. I've got my X behind me, but you've got raytracing here which really, and you can kind of see that on the water on the street there, right Sean?
Sean Crooks: That's it. We did a lot of effort with raytracing, both on the water, in pools of water, on the glass [inaudible 00:23:29]. London is a very modern city with lots of modern glass buildings and the reflections look just beautiful, and you'll see it in the cars as they drive past on some of the [crosstalk 00:23:38]
Larry Hryb: You can kind of see each of the cars has the color reflected in the water it's almost real time. You can see the reflection of the building there. I mean, that's all, that's not a bitmap, that's actually real, right?
Sean Crooks: Exactly. A real time raytrace reflection. I mean, I remember the first time we say Camden area at nighttime after a rain shower when we first enabled, and got objects looking phenomenal, and I remember the team was just blown away. We were huddled around the screen looking at the beautiful reflections, the neon lights. The way the RTX picks up, the reflections get picked up by the neon lights, it's just phenomenal.
Larry Hryb: Yeah. I mean, that is one area... So if you have an Xbox Series S or Series X, when you see the raytracing, assuming you've got the right TV and the right connection, there's a series of things you have to have other than just the console and the game to make sure it looks, but it just looks phenomenal and it really adds, and unfortunately I don't have the game loaded up at night right, but when I saw it was a rainstorm, I paused it and I was like, "Let's show at least the rain." But it really adds to the vibrancy of the game.
The other thing I love about this is the way you guys have tapped in and optimized the title not just for raytracing, but let's talk about quick resume, and fast loading, right? That's really incredible, isn't it?
Sean Crooks: Yeah, just even in development, having that kind of speed on loading has been such a great help. Being immediately into the game, you don't even have to worry about that stuff anymore. It's so fast it's immediate. It's like from [inaudible 00:25:01] in hand to gaming in seconds, it's just amazing, and it's allowed us to stream denser environments. The detail in the city just has way much more fidelity and resolution because of it. Getting all of that loaded with less popping, it just makes the game look so beautiful, and play so smooth.
Larry Hryb: Being able to get in the Tube and go from one end of London, and faster than ever before, you're barely done reading the loading screen, and boom, your character's ready to go. It's quite remarkable.
Sean Crooks: That's it. I think the Series X has just made loading screen tool tips redundant.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, right. What does the new tool tip look like now? Who knows.
Sean Crooks: That's it.
Larry Hryb: You know, I want to talk about building the city because before we started recording we were chatting. You worked on the previous Watch Dogs as well, which was based in San Francisco. What is it like to recreate cities that capture the essence of what the city is, but isn't line for line, block for block. Sometimes it is line for line and block for block, a duplicate. That's got to be quite the challenge as well.
Sean Crooks: It's a really interesting process we go through. The first job is you have to learn to love the city and understand the city. And we spend a lot of time visiting the locations. We have little maps and we tour the areas, and we start to create a fiber and a fabric of a city and we start to understand, what does this region, this area bring to London, and when people think of this area, what do they go to immediately? And you start to realize what makes that area so distinct and unique for Londoners, and then you kind of capture that essence, and then try and make sure that no matter what, if we need to reduce the scale to make it fit in a huge game world already, if we do that, we have to make sure we keep the essence, and what people expect.
You always know you've done it justice when you start seeing people post beautiful retro screen shots of shots from London and then they compare it to real world and the view is identical. It makes me really proud of the work the art teams did and the world teams when I see those side by sides. It's very cool.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, I'm looking for it right now. That's why I'm looking at the screen here. I've got, one of the great ones is the Microsoft store in Oxford. The Tube station comes right up and I came up and there it was because I opened the store last year, and I remember coming up from the tube, and there it was. And it was just, the building was right there, and you're right, you captured the ultimate essence of what it's all about.
The other areas that the game, I mean the game is just so expansive. Now you've got this game world, which you have to be true to what London is and what Londoners expect, but then you have to layer over the game play, and the game play is quite advanced from previous games. Walk us through a little bit of some of the advancements and what you've done.
Sean Crooks: The thing we're the most proud of, I think, against other installments of the series, is how much freedom you have as a player. So not only do you have a whole new fleet of drones that kind of cruise around the city and the highways that you can hack into and use, from parcels, drones that can drop parcels that give you cash and money, but you can also use them to drop on your enemies to distract them, to cargo drones that can carry huge explosive barrels that you can use to distract and explode bad guys, you can also fly on them. And even down to late game when you can start hacking and controlling those crazy CT drones and riot drones, you can actually start piloting and flying those things around, they're so much fun. So that's huge.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, the other thing I want to point out is, and I've noticed is with any great game, certainly a lot of the, we've played some games where there's a mission, and you have to do a specific thing, but what's interesting is when you walk up, it may lead you to the front door of a building, don't do that. Have fun. There's usually a second or a third or a fourth entrance or a place to drop your spider bot in. That's part of the fun, is figuring out what your level designers have come up with to kind of solve the puzzle in a non-obvious way, right?
Sean Crooks: That's it. We call it a totally 360 approach, and it's the idea that you don't have to second guess what the designer wanted to do, how do you want to do it, and how creative can you be about how you want to infiltrate that location? Stealth, all out assault, overhead from drones, [inaudible 00:29:10] RTF style by hopping cameras and hacking ingredients in labs to distract bad guys. We've seen some pretty creative stuff over the last couple of years from the way people play. We always get surprised.
Larry Hryb: I took a chance to get over to the Piccadilly Circus here, and I mean, this is... The cars, everything about this, and that's the great thing. You can take these, hack these cars, and go backwards with them and cause a little bit of chaos over here if you want. The world is yours to kind of unlock and hack as you see fit. You talked about... Certainly there's the missions and there's side missions, and there's quite a lovely story here. Great story going on, but just to be in it. Sometimes I'll just boot up the game and just play around in the world for a while. That's the sign of a great open world game, right?
Sean Crooks: That's it. The distractions. If you struggle to continue the main story because you keep getting distracted and pulled into other little gems that we've hidden in the world, that's when we know we've done a great job.
Larry Hryb: You know you talk about-
Sean Crooks: And-
Larry Hryb: No, no, go ahead, I want you to finish that because I have a question about some of the characters.
Sean Crooks: It's actually that I was going to hint towards, is that I think also the fact that we've added the characters on top of that with their own unique abilities that you can find and explore, the player gets rewarded for not just exploring London, but also finding parts of London and examining the characters that exist there because you can find a whole bunch of cool stuff.
Larry Hryb: Yeah. I mean, sometimes I'm just standing here in some of these main areas and looking around. It's raining right now, so obviously not a lot of people want to go out in the rain, but what's their story, what are they doing, and this is... What I've learned is, this, I've played many, many open worlds, and certainly you've got your main NPC characters that you'll run into, but there's also a lot of these secondary NPC characters in other games that don't really have back stories. That's what I've noticed when I'm playing Watch Dogs, is every single character matters and every single character's connected to this world, and it just adds a layer of, I don't want to say complexity, but realism that we've not seen before.
Sean Crooks: Yeah, I think just the world simulation in general, there's been a huge technical breakthrough for the team to get everyone in the world feeling individualized, people wanting to play them, having all their schedules there and then available, having different abilities, just the little things like seeing a barman and following him to work and then going behind the bar and then you actually see them start serving, and they have a bunch of abilities that you'd expect from a classic British bartender. And all these things just naturally stack up, and we've seen some pretty fun stuff. The game always surprises me. The amount of times I've looked in and I've said, "We do that?" Like see an ability or a job or something that stacks in a kind of quirky way, and I'm like... I remember the first time I saw the, what was it? I think it was the nail manicurist walking around who actually had paint that they could throw, and I'm like, "Well, that kind of makes sense." These are little touches that make everyone seem, feel real, and everyone also has a purpose, but also a life. It's surprises me.
Larry Hryb: The other thing I want to point... First of all, we've going at it, it feels like we've been talking for five minutes, and apparently we've been talking for about 20, so that's what's great, but I want to thank you for the game. I also want to point out, look, if you have this game, when you get your Xbox Series S or X, whether you got it on day one, whether you're getting it next week, or next month, or next year, this game just goes with you. So you can play it now, and when you get the console, it'll automatically be upgraded with smart delivery to the best version of the game for your console, so that's also great to see, that your team at Ubisoft has embraced the fact that you want to make sure your game is looking great and plays great on whatever hardware they have, they're going to get the best version, right?
Sean Crooks: That's it. And we also want people to make sure they can continue their saves through as well, so we've also added, with the Microsoft syncing, we have the save file that works between the generations, so you can continue your save file as you jump onto Series X or Series S, and continue the same play through as well. There's really no excuse, just jump in.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, it's funny, that's something that's underestimated that we kind of take for granted, but I'm sure you and I remember back in the day when you had your 360 memory unit, or maybe your PlayStation memory unit, what have you, being able to just open up a console, boot it up, download the game, install the game, and all of a sudden, there's your save, it's something you take for granted that we never were able to do right? Kind of like taking for granted you're sitting at your house on the other side of the country and we're doing this interview, right? That's the beauty of technology.
Sean Crooks: That's it.
Larry Hryb: Well Sean, I really appreciate you taking the time today to talk about Watch Dogs: Legion, available now on Xbox One, Xbox Series X, Xbox Series S, and the X and S versions, the raytracing, chef's kiss, it looks fantastic. Your team has done amazing work. So any final words before I let you go?
Sean Crooks: I just think go out, play, and make sure you enjoy the beautiful raytracing goodness because it looks beautiful, it really does.
Larry Hryb: I'm sure people will hit you up on Twitter, I put your Twitter handle over there. So Sean, thanks so much and congratulations to you and the team at Ubisoft for a great launch.
Sean Crooks: It was pleasure. Thank you very much and congrats to you too.
Jeff Rubenstein: Thanks so much to the dev team at Ubisoft Toronto for one, delivering an awesome game with really technologically advanced features like raytracing, and two, for joining us here on the Xbox Podcast with Major Nelson. I know you love that game. Let me know when you beat it. I think tonight-
Larry Hryb: Me?
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah you, Larry. I'm sure the people that work on it-
Larry Hryb: Everybody else loves the game too.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah, no, it's really good. I just love the power of standing outside of a place you're not supposed to be, and then having the tech do all the hacking, your little spider bot and everything else. Thanks, by the way, for the pro tip that the spider bot can do take downs. I had no idea until you showed me.
Larry Hryb: I couldn't believe you didn't know that, but I feel so happy that I showed you that.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah, well I was, I guess the spider bot, I would just, when I saw people, I would just run, or you could distract or things like that, but the fact that you can take them down and then they're out of the way, that will be very helpful, especially I think as I get later into the game. But it is really fun. I made the cardinal mistake that those of us with low impulse control do, and that is I started three open world games at once.
Larry Hryb: Don't do that.
Jeff Rubenstein: Now, they're all three really good. Watch Dogs: Legion, one of them of course, Assassin's Creed Valhalla, which we talked about, and also, I don't want to say it's my favorite, but I'm not going to say it's not my favorite of the three is Yakuza: Like a Dragon, which I'm so into. It's so funny, and yet heartfelt and it works. The transition to an RPG, it just works, and it's just really fun. The combat's fun, and anyway. It's really good. Now what I'm doing is one night, like when I come to, you know, tonight, when I say okay, next couple of hours, I'm just going to play, I'll pick one of the games, and I focus on that for that night, then the next night it's something else. So last night was a Yakuza night, so maybe I'll go back to Watch Dogs tonight, but I have to finish all three-
Larry Hryb: Yes you do.
Jeff Rubenstein: I'm just a little bit worried-
Larry Hryb: Now. You need to finish them now.
Jeff Rubenstein: I'm a little worried what's going to happen if I don't finish them before Cyberpunk comes out, because I'd like to think I'd have the willpower to not start it, but I also know that I do not have the willpower to not start it the day it comes out, so wish me luck.
Larry Hryb: Good luck.
Jeff Rubenstein: It's a real problem.
Larry Hryb: Real.
Jeff Rubenstein: It's important
Larry Hryb: Real one percenter problem right there Jeffery, real one percenter.
Jeff Rubenstein: I love games. Larry, let's talk about the news, right?
Larry Hryb: Well yeah, the news tickers already done some of your headlines at the bottom. I rolled it in here.
Jeff Rubenstein: Doing my work for me, which is great.
Larry Hryb: Wow. Grounded has over five million players, look at that.
Jeff Rubenstein: I was going to get there, yeah. Not only that, but there is the new koi pond update, which we showed during our launch celebration live stream, but the good folks down at Obsidian have been putting more and more into the game, and we said this was going to happen when it came out this summer, in the game preview that what you got there, actually people really liked it off the top, but you can finish that story mode in a few hours, and there's still more things to do in terms of building and hunting and rafting and things like that.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, doing all sorts of stuff.
Jeff Rubenstein: But I would say this is one of the larger updates that has happened since launch back in, July, I want to say. And so, there's not just this new area of, the koi pond was there, but you couldn't really do it. Now you can swim, there's new insects, tadpoles, diving bells, spiders.
Larry Hryb: Love that. Those are... Who needs, I thought underwater was safe, I don't want spiders in my water.
Jeff Rubenstein: And you can craft things to help you, the gill tube rebreather, the pebblet dagger, there's a bone trident, so that's great that there's five million folks playing, the team is still working on the game. They're still going to be continuing to add more, and also, this is probably pretty important for a lot of you out there, that the game has been optimized for Series X and Series S, and of course using smart delivery, it'll make sure it gets you the right version, but it runs at 60 frames per second on the next gen consoles, which, that's pretty great.
Larry Hryb: It's fantastic.
Jeff Rubenstein: So [crosstalk 00:38:33] distance, shadow quality, you're going to see those spiders coming a little further out because once they... You need to see them before they see you, I think is kind of where we landed there. Of course, it's on Xbox Game Pass, and it's also available on Windows 10, so do what you need to do.
Larry Hryb: Sweet.
Jeff Rubenstein: Big game that launched this week, Gears Tactics out on console.
Larry Hryb: Yeah. I know you were playing that on PC a lot.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah, I beat that in the spring. So there's two elements of this. One is that if you saw people playing it on PC, you don't have a gaming PC, been waiting for it, great. It's here for you now. It looks great. It's optimized for Xbox Series X and Series S and of course it's on Game Pass and there's smart delivery so you can play it on Xbox One if you're still waiting for your Series X to come out. The other part of it is, okay I played it on PC and I beat it, what's there for me?
Well there's actually quite a bit. There's new weapons, there's a new character, Jack, which is not someone you have to select to fill in one of your four spots, because those are very precious, this is a fifth wheel, but a fifth wheel in a good way. Now, they're giving you stuff, they're giving you these supreme weapons, they're giving you Jack who can run out and grab those treasure chests for you that are a lot of times far out of the way, or can help recover you or stun enemies. Of course, they make the game more difficult and there are a new class of enemies that are more powerful and more difficult. So a lot there. I love Tactical RPGs. If you're a Gears fan, and you've never played this type of strategy game, I think you're going to find things there. There's a lot more there than you might expect from your average strategy game. It really captures Gears and it's really intense. You have more time to think, but because you have that extra time, it's also much more challenging and you want to make the right moves.
And one last thing is a lot of these tactical RPGs, you think of XCOM, or anything, it's all about reducing risk and being behind cover as much as possible. This game rewards aggression. Sometimes, because of these overwhelming odds, you've got to make a foray, like a dagger stab in, and go behind enemy lines, and you're really exposing yourself, but if you do it and your successful, you get extra turns for your other characters, and you can help bail them out, and that's one of the most fun elements of the game, is that you get to play it all out, and a lot of times you're forced to. So anyway, Gears Tactics available now, definitely play it.
Larry Hryb: I've got to, I'm sorry, I've just got to go to this one.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah, please do.
Larry Hryb: I'm over here while you're doing the news, I'm looking at the raytracing on the side of this building and it's bananas.
Jeff Rubenstein: Oh, those are reflections! I thought those were clear blocks.
Larry Hryb: No. Those are reflections, you can see people, you can see things happening on the street behind you, it's kind of crazy.
Jeff Rubenstein: Can you go and look at a puddle, because I think those are the ones that really... They stand out great at night, but you can see them in the day when there's a puddle, if you go... Yeah, look at the reflections. I mean look how [crosstalk 00:41:32]
Larry Hryb: Look at the water.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah. Just how [crosstalk 00:41:35]
Larry Hryb: It's reacting to the [crosstalk 00:41:36]
Jeff Rubenstein: The cracks on the street, and you can see... Raytracing is such a game changer, and it is really going to, you see where Blume reflects into the wet sidewalk. It's a good think London's a rainy city because it really gives the raytracing a chance to shine.
Larry Hryb: Anyway, I'm sorry, I was just over here while you were doing the news and doing all the heavy lifting, I was playing games over here.
Jeff Rubenstein: No, you were doing what you do. There was a lot of games, there were actually like 30, quite a few games. [crosstalk 00:42:05]
Larry Hryb: Go to majornelson.com go to my blog.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah, check them out there.
Larry Hryb: I've got them all listed [crosstalk 00:42:09] scroll forever.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yakuza: Like a Dragon, Falconeer, which is essentially made by one man, Tomas Sala.
Larry Hryb: We had him on the show a few weeks ago.
Jeff Rubenstein: We had him on the show about a month ago, yup. So he wrote an article for Xbox Wire on some tips to play, which is super helpful because the game doesn't... You have a lot of freedom, but a little bit of guidance maybe will help you. Seen some people playing, if you've got, like you do Larry, a really modern TV that can handle 120 frames per second, I'm hearing the Ori The Will of the Wisps is that game you want to try out.
Larry Hryb: I've got a couple of friends who have been texting me. They're like, "I knew that you said it was good, but Ori at 120, it's eye melting." I wish, I don't have it loaded here. I had it loaded on one of my other machines, but on OLED it's phenomenal.
Jeff Rubenstein: And during that, even if you don't have 120, then they can use 6K super sampling down to 4K, which we've talked about-
Larry Hryb: Jeffery using the big words.
Jeff Rubenstein: I know. But basically, you can see enhancements that even, that sort of make their way down. We talked about super sampling a lot when we were launching the Xbox 1X and so that's really cool, and it just allows you to, even if you're not running some crazy K TV, to see those enhancements.
Larry Hryb: When you say K you mean the number of pixels.
Jeff Rubenstein: Thousand. What else could it be?
Larry Hryb: Korean.
Jeff Rubenstein: Okay. So speaking of 120 hertz, did you catch the announcement during the livestream this week? The launch livestream.
Larry Hryb: Which one?
Jeff Rubenstein: Where Phil was playing Apex, uh, Apex, he was playing-
Larry Hryb: Destiny.
Jeff Rubenstein: Destiny.
Larry Hryb: With Pete Parsons.
Jeff Rubenstein: With Pete Parsons. And Bungie and Pete casually dropped that Crucible is going to be coming in 120 frames per second, and I think we're seeing it also with Gears five. You know when you're playing these competitive modes, the extra frames per second, it's not just window dressing, it's more responsiveness, and that's something you can feel. It's not just... This generation's not just what you can see, but it's what you can feel, and that's why-
Larry Hryb: By the way, that segment with Pete Parsons and Phil, I know people could watch hours of that. Phil's going to be a streamer after he's an EVP, right?
Jeff Rubenstein: I'm telling you, gaming with Phil would be an incredible talk show.
Larry Hryb: We should probably work on that with him.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah. I was talking to our executive producer afterwards, and I was like, "We should do more of this." So you know, who knows if that'll happen, but I would watch it.
Larry Hryb: I would love it.
Jeff Rubenstein: I would definitely watch it. Couple more games I wanted to talk about because a lot of other games that were aside from our launch efforts launched this week as well. Fuser is one. This is a musical game from Harmonics. We know Harmonics, good friends there that worked on games such as Rock Band, and Just Dance, or not Just Dance, it was Dance, oh my god.
Larry Hryb: Dance Central.
Jeff Rubenstein: Dance Central, thank you so much. That we were launching with, and Fantasia as well, which was really fun. Thanks for singing Just Dance, I didn't, that was, I didn't realize you were a Gaga fan, but I learn about you.
Larry Hryb: Actually that was Bowie.
Jeff Rubenstein: No, was his song called Just Dance as well? I know what you're talking about, but anyways, we'll come back. Fuser. It's a great game. I'm hearing great things about it. If you liked previous Harmonics games, this is something you're going to want to take a look at. It's like a party DJ type of thing.
Larry Hryb: It's called Let's Dance, that's Bowie. Let's Dance.
Jeff Rubenstein: Let's Dance. Thank you.
Larry Hryb: Let's Dance.
Jeff Rubenstein: There we go. And then just wanted to talk real quickly as well, about Xbox Game Pass like we do every week, the gift that keeps on giving. So this was an announcement that we got to make this week, which is Disney+ coming to Xbox Game Pass, as well as EA Play. We talked about EA Play, that's already there. There's like 60 games there. So if you want to play Madden 20, Unravel two, Dragon Age Inquisition-
Larry Hryb: Wait a minute, if you're not a member of Xbox Game Pass, what are you doing?
Jeff Rubenstein: You don't like value. You're just against value.
Larry Hryb: Do you not like games? do you not like value?
Jeff Rubenstein: So, Destiny 2: Beyond Light is part of it, Planet Coaster, it's a new game. This was surprising to find out, Tetris Effect Connected was coming [crosstalk 00:46:36] now part of Xbox Game Pass.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, I played that on the stream the other day and it was great, a lot of fun.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yes, for console and PC. Final Fantasy 8 Remastered. A lot of games. Halo 4's going to be coming in a week. Less than a week by the time you hear this, to PC as part of the master chief collection. So let me just, I want to read it so I say it right. So there's perks for being part of Xbox Game Pass. These are things that are not games that are good reasons to be a member. So we announced that new users can get a 30 day trial of Disney+ with their Xbox Game Pass ultimate membership. So basically, you don't have Disney+ already, this is a great chance to get 30 days included with your Xbox Game Pass ultimate membership. The timing is really good, because what's out right now?
Larry Hryb: What's out?
Jeff Rubenstein: The Mandalorian.
Larry Hryb: No spoilers.
Jeff Rubenstein: We're into season two. I'm actually an episode behind. So season one, you can go ahead and you can binge watch that, and you could, by the time those 30 days are up, seven or eight episodes-
Larry Hryb: Our conversation around it earlier would've made more sense, my comments, that's all I'll say.
Jeff Rubenstein: Hmm, okay. I'm going to not think about it too much because I don't want that to be ruined. Last game I'm going to talk about here is called, there's just a game called Overcooked! All You Can Eat. Available for Xbox Series S and X, and it's sort of a combination of Overcooked one and two. We're just saying, we're not having a big get together for Thanksgiving. There's just going to, excuse me, the three of us that live in this house and my brother, who's in our bubble, there will be four of us, this is what we'll be playing, is playing Overcooked. So Overcooked! All You Can Eat-
Larry Hryb: Tag me in from my house.
Jeff Rubenstein: Fun for the whole family, and then we'll be yelling. We'll just be yelling at each other, though because let me tell you-
Larry Hryb: More than usual? Because I go to your house, it's like a [crosstalk 00:48:26]
Jeff Rubenstein: We're a loud family. We don't, it's yelling and then it's over. We heat up and we cool right back down. The last thing I want to talk about is something that we helped work on, our team, but also with our excellent partners in engineering, is this FAQ, this ultimate Xbox Series X FAQ. Larry can you please put it in the chat.
Larry Hryb: Or in the show notes and wherever.
Jeff Rubenstein: So we sat down and we thought, putting on our long time gamer, player hat, and what am I going to wonder about before I get my Xbox Series S and X, or once I get it, how do I do this or that, and we answer questions on just, in general, the power of this generation, compatibility, functionality, some deep dives on Xbox Series S and X specific questions that you might have. Even how much clearance should I give the Xbox Series X and the answer is you really don't need that much, about an inch and a half, which is four centimeters.
Larry Hryb: You mean when you're putting it in your entertainment center.
Jeff Rubenstein: Exactly. So you don't have to have the world's largest entertainment center.
Larry Hryb: We'll talk to you about moving games around, how do you expand storage? Pro tip, real easy. All those things that you expect from next generation consoles.
Jeff Rubenstein: Yeah. So that's it for the news, Larry.
Larry Hryb: You know, we're going to-
Jeff Rubenstein: Back to you.
Larry Hryb: No, we're going to wrap up the show because these people, people want to go play their games, they want to go find... My light just went out, apparently my system has said, "I'm done." Okay. We're going to go play. I know folks want to play games, they want to get their consoles, or maybe get them set up, but we're here for you. I've got a bunch of interviews coming up in the coming weeks that will address, help people. We talked about last week, optimizing your home theater. We'll give you some more tips around that. Got a lot of great stuff, of course a lot of great games coming up as well, so we want to thank you again for your support for the launch, and we know you want to console, we know you want a Series X or an S or maybe even both, and we're going to do our darnedest to make sure that everybody who wants one can get one, so there you go.
Jeff Rubenstein: Well said Larry.
Larry Hryb: All right Jeff. All right my friends. You know how to find us. Let's pop up our social handles right here. You know how to find me @majornelson, @jeffrubenstein right there, he's one of the people that I follow, and-
Jeff Rubenstein: Share. I want to see your home unboxing.
Larry Hryb: Yes.
Jeff Rubenstein: And the first game playing, so tag us, we love to see it.
Larry Hryb: Let us know.
Jeff Rubenstein: And we're looking at as many as we can, so thank you.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, let us know, and we'll make sure that we say hello, and again, thank you for all your support. Thanks for another, thanks for Xbox, longtime Xbox owners, thanks for joining us for another launch, we really appreciate it.
Jeff Rubenstein: This is going to be fun one. This is going to be a fun one.
Larry Hryb: Lot of fun stuff. All right, we're going to let everybody go. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure, okay.
Jeff Rubenstein: Oh, I'm sorry. And it does mean a lot. Please like, please subscribe, and if you've got friends that are into Xbox, let them know you watch or listen to this podcast.
Larry Hryb: If you're just listening to this, you can see the video, same exact version, the video version of this soundtrack over on YouTube if just-
Jeff Rubenstein: I got lighting now!
Larry Hryb: Yeah.
Jeff Rubenstein: I did that for, the viewer.
Larry Hryb: Yeah, Jeff has lighting. It doesn't look it, but he does. All right Jeffery.
Jeff Rubenstein: We'll see you next week. I'm ready to do it.
Larry Hryb: All right, we'll talk to everybody next time, thanks for watching, thanks for your support, and we'll see you online. Bye bye everybody!
Jeff Rubenstein: Bye.