GDC Indie Games Deep Dive w/Devs & ID@Xbox | Official Xbox Podcast

SPEAKER 1: Games in this podcast range from E to M.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh, ladies and gentlemen, welcome in to the Official Xbox Podcast. It's the only podcast coming to you from inside Xbox. I'm Ethan, and we've got a great one for you today. We're talking about ID@Xbox games being featured at this year's GDC, and joining me to host today is Senior PM of the Developer Acceleration Program, none other than Annette Porter. Annette, it's so great to have you here.

ANNETTE PORTER: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh, I love that you're here. We were just talking before the show. Like, it's been -- it's been a minute. I didn't want to say it.

ANNETTE PORTER: It's been a while.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: It's been a while, it's been a while. I think, like, two years. A lot has changed --

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Career-wise, what we've been up to. We met at PAX West, got to explore the con with some colleagues and --

ANNETTE PORTER: Yes.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Indie Mega Booth and kind of do the whole thing, and even then, it was clear your passion for, like, new and upcoming games, and so I love to see that, kind of where you've come through Xbox and, like, where you're at now. It's awesome.

ANNETTE PORTER: Thank you. Yeah, and it's fun to come here and talk about all of these awesome games. Definitely have indies near and dear to my heart, so I always light up when I get an opportunity to talk about them.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: For sure. Love to, you know, obviously we have a lot of huge studios at Xbox, but, like, there's so many great indie devs and titles coming through the ID@Xbox -- system? What would you call it? Program?

ANNETTE PORTER: Program.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, that's a word I would use. That's a better word than what I said. But it's hard to kind of catch them all. There's just so many, so many games, and so I love that we're doing this. I love that we have a recap, and I love that GDC is featuring so many of these titles.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah, it's definitely an opportunity for us to just elevate some of the cool stuff that we're seeing out there, and we have such a wonderful range of games being shown at the show this year, and some of them you'll see on the podcast today.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Ooh, yes.

ANNETTE PORTER: So that's always a good time, and I also work on the Developer Acceleration Program, like you mentioned, and so we're also always on the lookout for some really cool, innovative indies around the globe. So we'll have some games from the program there, too.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Nice. I did want to just real quick touch on that. So that -- can you explain that program?

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah, so we were founded in 2019. It's essentially a program within the ID@Xbox program, so we're focused on empowering indie developers around the globe to bring their games to Xbox platforms and share unique perspectives and stories to the global Xbox audience. So we are like over 300 partners now, and we recently hit a milestone of over 100 games shipped on Xbox platforms, so definitely holding strong. So we're still going, you know, we have folks that will be on the ground at GDC to find some really cool new partners, taking virtual meetings as well.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Wow, busy.

ANNETTE PORTER: So certainly keeping busy, but just always on the lookout for cool stuff to share with the Xbox audience.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Very cool, very cool, and that that sounds like a fun gig. But we're not alone today. We're here with someone that I think you know very well, Annette. It is the GM of Portfolio and Program at Xbox, but you might know him best for his work with the ID@Xbox team. It's Chris Charla. Charla, welcome in.

CHRIS CHARLA: Hey, how's it going?

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Doing well. How are you feeling?

CHRIS CHARLA: Good, good.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah? We're on the -- what's the word? I can't talk today. I can't think of words today. The eve of GDC.

CHRIS CHARLA: Yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, the energy's got to be high.

CHRIS CHARLA: It is. I mean, it's always really fun preparing for GDC because, you know, you're getting all this stuff together. We've got all the Team Xbox working on, you know, making sure we're going to be putting our best foot forward and showing devs all the cool new dev stuff. We're also obviously meeting a bajillion partners, and then we're going to be showing some games, too, which I think we're going to be talking about some today.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, but the best episodes of this podcast are when we just get to come on and gush about games, honestly. It's such a pleasure. You know, I got to call out that it's obviously, you know, this year's the Xbox 25th anniversary, a huge milestone for us, and, you know, this is something we talk about in our team a lot, but I'm curious, how do you reflect on your time at Xbox and your team's work with developers over the last, you know, years?

ANNETTE PORTER: Personally, a lot of the stuff that the indie program did when it, you know, started and Xbox Live Arcade and Summer of Arcade and everything that was happening was like such -- so meaningful to me to see all of these awesome, you know, self-published studios have the tools to just be able to do that and put their games out on a major platform like Xbox. And so, some of my favorite gaming experiences came from the arcade. So, you know, that's a lot due to the work from Chris and a whole bunch of folks behind the scenes to make that happen and still going strong, and you see just the wonderful breadth of games that are coming through, and some of the most innovative and awesome projects that come through are from the indie space. People are taking risks, people are doing crazy stuff, and it's just 100% what makes me love gaming so much. So definitely a big part of the Xbox experience for me, and now doing it professionally is the indie space and how this program has elevated that.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, yeah. Chris, love to hear your thoughts.

CHRIS CHARLA: Yeah, it's been -- it's been awesome. It's funny for me because, you know, I've spent, you know, I've been at Xbox for a long time, but before I was at Xbox, I was an independent developer, and we made Xbox Live Arcade games, right? Like, that was kind of like the thing that we did best, and just the freedom that you got from -- as an independent developer back then, and I'll kind of call the "bad old days," when suddenly you could self-publish or suddenly you could, you know, make a digital game and that was, like, enough. Well, it's, like, it was just life-changing. And I think we've seen it, and you mentioned Summer of Arcade. I always go back to that, that Summer of Arcade, I think 2008, where it was just like Limbo and Castle Crashers, and it's like, like, how many stories were out there the entire time games existed just like -- but they just couldn't get told, right? And then all of a sudden they just burst through. All of a sudden we're in this golden age of indie games, and that was now, like, 15, 16, however long ago. I can't do math. I think it was actually -- it might have been 18 years ago. Like -- like --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, that's right. It would take me a second.

CHRIS CHARLA: We're still in the golden age, you know what I mean? It hasn't slowed down.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Couldn't agree more, honestly, like, and specifically with, like, indie devs, like, they're the ones pushing kind of the boundaries of what a game can be. They're the innovators. They're the ones that see the gap or they have a passion or a vision, and I'm always blown away by like what indie devs have to offer. And so with that in mind, we wanted to make sure this episode was championing some of those incredible devs and indie games that are coming down the pipeline and you're going to get to see at GDC. And so today we have some devs from Mixtape, from Delphinium, from Screenbound that we'll be talking to shortly, but first, I feel like we have to talk about a few of the other highlights that are kind of coming from our ID@Xbox program this week. I think one that jumped out at me is At Fate's End. This is a Thunder Lotus game from the makers of Spiritfarer and I believe 33 Immortals. Big fans of both of those games. I mean, if you haven't played either of them, you absolutely should. I want to talk about At Fate's End, the story, the combat, the art style, the focus on tarot cards, all of it just delivers on this one.

ANNETTE PORTER: Such a cool game, and what a breadth for that studio. Like, just, yeah, the range of content that they've had, like, it's incredible. Like, that is such a talented studio, and then just to be able to also have such a, like, definitive art direction and art style, like --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's what I was going to say.

ANNETTE PORTER: Beautiful fluid animation, and you can just kind of see that through all of their games, and so seeing how they've built upon, like, past titles and bringing this new experience that's like has an emotional story arc, that has really solid, fluid combat, that has this really cool tarot system I'm sure we'll talk about, like, it's really neat.

CHRIS CHARLA: Yeah, the cards and what they offer, and, like, my mind is going a million miles an hour of, like, oh, my gosh.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah, and it definitely lends itself to a lot of experimentation, too, you can tell. Like, it was like, you know, the demo I played, it was, like, limited, and I almost stopped myself because I was like, I want to play the final one. This is too good. Like, you know --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. That's a good feeling, when you know, you're like, I'm in.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, I'm ready.

ANNETTE PORTER: But there is just like -- just how it was set up was just really cool, like you'll just basically unlock different abilities that you can leverage and you can sort of see, because essentially, it's a game where you fight people you love. They're siblings in a lot of these case, and you're just like going through these really big, dynamic duels, essentially, and even though it's kind of one-on-one, it can be pretty challenging. So that's where, you know, this sort of system comes into play where you're, like, okay, what sort of skills can help best, you know, support my ability to just beat this thing? And so I could definitely see a lot of trial and error there, but, like, you feel really good about it as you kind of create different builds to --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Gratifying, too, probably once you're on the other side of those fights.

ANNETTE PORTER: It feels good and it looks great.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Sounds great.

ANNETTE PORTER: It sounds great. Just everything is great.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, everything is great.

ANNETTE PORTER: Thunder Lotus rules.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: They really do, yeah. Shout out Thunder Lotus. And then we have Replaced. I'm curious what you guys think of this one. It's a side-scroller with interesting combat mechanics, but I think one of the things that really stands out is just how cinematic the game feels. Like, it really, moment for moment --

ANNETTE PORTER: Beautiful game.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, very immersive, you know? I love when people play with the depth of a side-scroller. The lighting is really cool, you know, and the same thing, like, it always blows me away how good pixel art can look.

ANNETTE PORTER: It has like a modern polish to it. Like, I hope that they're doing a GDC talk or something, just kind of breaking down just the art, because like, even though it's like 2.5D, like, they still do really interesting things with the camera. The lighting is just really effective. Everything about it just -- like, I couldn't believe it. Like, I was watching, and there were just like even some cinematic moments where I'm like -- I said, "Oh, wow," like, out loud, and I couldn't believe that happened. I'm like, "Okay, this is something really special," so -- and I know the demo's been getting a lot of buzz, too, and people are like super hyped, so there's that. But, yeah, such a cool game. I'm like super, super pumped for this one.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: It's awesome. Someone said Blade Runner. I don't even know the -- it's very much its own thing. The combat's really unique, like, kind of like what we said with At Fate's End, like, I feel like the combat is really gratifying. It looks intense. It feels intense for pixel art especially. Like, yeah, I'm really sucked into the world already. So that's another one where I just can't wait to dive in. I think that one's going to be really special. But what about you two? Like, you guys have been working diligently, you know. GDC is right around the corner. It's kind of one of the biggest -- it's got to be one of the biggest weeks of the year for you guys at ID@Xbox.

CHRIS CHARLA: Oh, yeah, yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: What stood out for you guys? I'm curious, you know, if there's a particular game that hit close to home or a mechanic you love or maybe just general feelings about the games you're seeing over the week.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah, I think I'm just excited to see just the range of experiences. Again, really speaks to just how cool the indie community is, and there's different genres, there's different art styles, there's different everything, and so even just having gone through playing through a lot of these demos, I'm, like, wow. Games are awesome.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Games are awesome. And you said it, like, indie devs, like, I love how supportive they are of one another. I mean, it really does feel like it's just a good energy.

CHRIS CHARLA: It's amazing. So whether it's the energy, the camaraderie, the inclusiveness, you know, GDC is one of the few places in the world where you can just like literally go up to anybody and be like, "I liked your game," you know, and all of a sudden you're talking to, like, Will Wright or you're talking to Hideo Kojima and it's just completely acceptable, and, you know, that's big GDC, and then I feel like at the ID@Xbox Showcase or XPA Showcase, it's the same thing replicated on a, you know, smaller, more intimate scale, and what's so cool is like the -- I'm going to use an economics word here, like, the elasticity of demand for video games is so big that, like, we're not competitors, do you know what I mean?

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, totally.

CHRIS CHARLA: Like, there's plenty of room for everybody to succeed. So it's kind of like a -- it's a co-op, like, making games is a co-op game. It's not like a PvP game. And, you know, we all know that and we all intellectually know that, but when you're at GDC or you're at our showcase, you just -- you feel it and it's real.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah, it really reinforces the human element of game dev, and then, like, just kind of -- at least for me, just reminds me, like, why we do all this, you know?

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Totally.

CHRIS CHARLA: Absolutely.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Good grounding exercise.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah. It's, like, so refreshing.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's awesome.

ANNETTE PORTER: Everyone's the best.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's awesome. Yeah, it's an intense week, but got to be so gratifying. I love that. All right, we mentioned having some devs around on the horn to talk about their games with us today. Let's not keep them waiting. First up, we're cruising into one that I think a lot of people are very excited about. Here to talk to us about all things Mixtape, it's Johnny Galvatron. Johnny, welcome to the Official Xbox Podcast. Whoo.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: It's so good to be here. I haven't been up all night. I'm fine (laughter). How are you? Yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: How big are the bags under your eyes that you're hiding with those giant sunglasses?

JOHNNY GALVATRON: You can still see the bottom (laughter).

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, haven't bottomed out yet. Haven't bottomed out. All right, well let's get into it. If you're that tired, I want to dive into this, so we don't want to keep you waiting too long, but I think we're super excited to talk about this game today. So someone said it's like the most Ferris Bueller-ian game they've ever played here in the studio, and they loved everything about it, you know, the feel, the music, the storytelling. All of it just kind of works so well together, and what I've seen, I couldn't agree more. Would love to kind of hear you tell us a little bit about, like, your thinking there and what kind of demo is going to be available at GDC this week.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Sure. Well, Mixtape is about three teens on their last day of high school and they're going through this soundtrack on their last night together, which reminds them of their formative memories, and they go off in these surreal kind of music-themed vignettes, and you're going to get a bunch of rad music in the demo at GDC. There's Devo, which is my favorite band maybe of all time.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Wow.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: And there's a thing with putting these songs in a game. I think it's very much like, because they're my favorite songs, it's very much like starting a business with your friends. You're, like, where are we going to be at the end of this? Me and my love of "That's Good" by Devo, after I listen to it 200,000 times, will I still love "That's Good" by Devo? And I can tell you that if anything, I love "That's Good" even more (laughter).

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's awesome.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Every day I just -- and you can tell in the office when I'm doing another playthrough, because I'm, like, yes, I love Devo so much. So you'll be skateboarding to Devo, you'll be French kissing to Alice Coltrane, you'll be screaming in a shopping trolley from The Police to Rainbow's "Sensitive to Light," and there's "Freak" by Silverchair as well in the demo, which is -- Silverchair was like one of those bands for me when I was growing up. Daniel Johns, the singer, he was on my wall. I remember I was in -- I'm just going to keep talking.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Please.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: I was in a studio in Sydney, and Daniel Johns was my hero, and I was just -- I had done some vocals and I was sitting there on the couch, and he just walked out of the toilet, which is like a god just walked out of the bathroom in front of me, and he was like, "Hey, what's up?" And I think I said, like, "I -- I -- I love -- I love you. I love what you -- you -- you've done."

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: (laughter). He thought you were talking about what went on in the bathroom.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Yeah, I know (laughter). And he was, like, "Do you want to come down to the bar -- the pub with us? We're doing tequila shots." I was, like, "More than anything, Daniel." And then we were (laughter) -- we were there at the bar, and then he's very famous in Australia, so the paparazzi were there, like, almost immediately, and they were like at the window taking photos, and I was, like, "I'm so sorry Daniel. They follow me everywhere." (laughter).

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's so awesome, dude. I've heard this, like, I don't know if you guys have heard this, but I feel like -- I can't remember who said it, but someone said that, like, soundtracks to movies are like a mixtape made by a director of, like, their favorite songs. They're, like, trying to tell a story to the audience, and I really resonate with that as like a fan of just soundtracks in general. I wanted to ask you, Johnny, do you agree with that, and like, what do you hope fans take away from specifically the soundtrack of this game?

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Yeah. Well, I think that there is that saying that people just make movies to show people the music they like, and I definitely think that's a vibe. We started this game with the soundtrack, with just the songs that I loved, and we would lay them end to end as a mixtape and be like, what story does this tell? Where's the pacing? Like, where's the shade? Where's the light? Then we'd rearrange it and be like, what story does that tell? How does it affect the pacing? Because I think with a game like this, and Artful Escape, our first game as well, it's like one of the most important things about kind of something that's very narrative, music, art-driven is the pacing has to be like immaculate. Otherwise, the experience doesn't work. So we rearranged it till we found the perfect line of music, and then the story was kind of added on top of that. And we built the game as a horizontal slice as opposed to a vertical slice. So, you know, a lot of people know a vertical slice is what you build, a very kind of finished, small segment of the game to kind of show what it's going to be. We built a crappy version of the entire game end to end, and it was the perfect way to figure out a game like this, and once we had that, like, rock-solid core of, this is the music flows, it's beautiful, it tells the story, the lulls and crescendos are in the right place, then we kind of built our mountains upon those firmaments. And what do I want people to get from the soundtrack? I want them to be like, either, "Devo, remember Devo?" or "Have you heard of this band Devo? We should get into them." (laughter).

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: He's their biggest fan, man. I swear, that's so funny. You brought up Artful Escape, which, of course, that was the first game you announced at Xbox Showcase. What a game. That's one I always throw up when people are like, how do I show people video games? Like, that's on my list of games that I showed my parents when I was trying to convince them to get an Xbox over COVID and, like, what artistic games could be. They're not just like all shooters, right? And I think it's just like, one, like, kudos, that game is incredible. Legitimately, my parents loved it, and I love that game.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Oh, sick.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, yeah, they're big fans, they're big fans. That's like exactly the stuff I show them now. They're big fans.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Love being like the gateway drug.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, 100% is. My mom just got into, like, just finally figured out the second stick on a controller.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: She can play Mixtape now.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, exactly. I'm definitely going to show her, for sure, for sure. But what has it been like to kind of work with Xbox through all this? Like, obviously, this is the second game now you've announced at a Showcase and having a game, like, you're leading be part of the events at GDC and Showcase? What's that feel like?

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Oh, it feels fantastic, and I always think that, you know, Xbox, obviously, it has like Bethesda and these like -- these huge, like, fists that it can punch with, but it's like always been so kind and appreciative of indie and supportive of indie, and like, being part of Game Pass has been a huge part of Beethoven and Dinosaur and the way that we have come up from just a team making demos at PAX. And I remember like when you showed Artful Escape the first time and it was in a basketball stadium in L.A., and man, I felt so cool. It was such an amazing experience to, like, that was like my first game going into -- going to the stadium, seeing it play, and meeting all the people behind Xbox and seeing what Xbox fans are like in the flesh in L.A. Incredible experience. So it's fantastic to be on Xbox. They've been a huge support, and I think people should know how supportive they are of indies and people -- games like us and teams like us.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's got to feel good.

CHRIS CHARLA: Yeah. I have to say that Artful Escape was my favorite game to ever pitch. So, you know, when we get ready for these shows, we show a lot of things and we're thinking about this, we're thinking about that, and we watch it, like, three or four times and people were just like, "This is bonkers in the best possible way." It was just like so, so cool.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: That's dope. I love to hear that.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, yeah. It's a special game, and so, I mean, it feels like Mixtape is going to be no different. I mean, with music at the center of it, like, both games, obviously. I used to joke and call Artful Escape "Bob Dylan, The Game," which I don't think does it justice frankly, but that was, like, when I watched --

JOHNNY GALVATRON: It's better than "Fartful Escape."

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: For sure, for sure, yeah, true, true.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: That was the first comment that I ever read about the game online. I'm like, "Fartful Escape? Damn, that guy's good." (laughter).

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: His YouTube comments are on to something, yeah, yeah.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: These guys are electric (laughter).

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Well, I know you said you were tired. Like, we could talk about this game all day. Mixtape releasing later this year. Is there anything you want to share that we haven't covered, anything you want to let the Xbox community know?

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Oh, I would just say it's been fun doing all the press knowing that the game is good. This part of the job would suck so much if you were, like, "Damn, I think this is like a six." (laughter) This would be like a really horrible time. So I would just say to the Xbox players, like, we're really proud of this game. I think it's something special. I think we've become a better team, better artists in between Artful Escape and Mixtape, and I think we made something really special.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's awesome. Yeah, it absolutely looks like, it. Johnny Galvatron, thank you so much for joining us. We greatly appreciate you.

JOHNNY GALVATRON: Thanks for having me. Thanks, Xbox. Thanks, Team. See you on the shelves.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: See you on the shelves, I love that.

CHRIS CHARLA: Nice.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Ooh, I love that.

ANNETTE PORTER: What a sign-off.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: All right, all right. Our next guest is coding this game by herself, and if this is your first time seeing or hearing about Delphinium, you are in for a treat. We are so excited to have Heidi here on the show with us. Heidi, welcome to the Official Xbox Podcast. How are you?

HEIDI BORGE: Hi. Thank you so much. I am very nervous but very excited to be here this morning.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, we're glad to have you. Do not be nervous. The bar could not be lower. We really do appreciate having you here (laughter), but honestly, super excited to talk about this one as well. I think, you know, we were putting this episode together, looking at a lot of the games, and I think we got really excited about this one because the vibes are just immaculate. Like, obviously, the game's set in a fantasy world dealing with the fallout of war and a failed rebellion, and yet it's cozy, you know? Like, I just -- I think, like, it kind of blew me away, and I think if this is the first time someone's hearing about this game, I'm curious how you would describe it.

HEIDI BORGE: I mean, I think the cozy aspect of it is what's sort of -- I want to focus on there because, as you said, Delphinium is set in a fantasy world, there's been a war, there's been, you know, people tried to rally for social justice and they had a revolution and it failed, so the world is in a really uncertain time in the game, and I wanted to sort of examine that in regards to the real world, I guess, but especially, I started working on this game in the middle of the COVID pandemic, and that was when cozy games became really, really popular back in 2021. You know, there was this explosion of them because we were all trapped inside all the time. You want to have this game where you can, you know, like, you can get away and you can escape to something more relaxing. And so now, half a decade on, in Delphinium, I kind of want to examine a lot of, I guess, like real-world sentiments about how it feels to be in a world where the future is really uncertain and knowing how to feel about that, but, you know, sort of feeling, like, just wanting to get away from it all is less and less of an option.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, I think you nailed it, honestly. And also --

HEIDI BORGE: I'm glad.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: I will say I got a bit of acid reflux when you said 2021 was half a decade away. Time is flying.

ANNETTE PORTER: It's so fast, yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Honestly, honesty.

HEIDI BORGE: It really is.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Now, have either of you had a chance to jump into this one yet? Have you seen much of Delphinium?

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah. Yeah, I was just, you know, would love to hear more about, you know, how you landed on sort of the art direction for the game and some of the more, like, nostalgic sort of aesthetics to your title.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: That's a good question.

HEIDI BORGE: I guess a lot of it has really been born out of convenience and what I can and can't do. I started working on the game when I was 18. I had just graduated high school, and there were still a lot of things I was learning at the time. I had been a programmer for two years. I'd been a digital artist for about five years as like a hobby, but I'd never done like 3D art, for example. So I wanted to use 2.5D art style where you have a sort of like 3D world, but all the sprites, the characters and stuff, they're all 2D sprites running around, and that style, again, was born from convenience at the time, because I was like, I don't know how to model and rig a character. I don't know how to do that, so we'll use 2D sprites instead. But what happened there is that I think it helped create a really sort of cool and unique art style for the game in the end. I think it's all about, you know, like, limitations can help breed creativity and come up with something really cool. So I'm glad that the art style of the game especially has seemed to resonate with a lot of people.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Definitely, definitely. So unique.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah. We were definitely struck by it. So it's kind of fascinating to hear it's out of convenience because it's totally working for you.

HEIDI BORGE: Okay. I'm glad it worked out.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: And you mentioned that you've been doing this all on your own. Are you self-taught? Like, is all this just kind of you started as a hobby and dove into it deep, and, like, are you doing truly everything on this game?

HEIDI BORGE: Oh, I'm definitely not doing truly everything. I have three very talented contractors working with me on that game. I have Starling Tan, my composer. She is doing the music for the game.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh, nice.

HEIDI BORGE: Hannah Ewer, who does graphic design, marketing for the company, and Ty Hemmy, who does animations and has been doing some character models, which, just to explain that, because I did just say all the characters are sprites, but we're now using this pipeline of 3D character models that are then converted to 3D sprites --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh, interesting.

HEIDI BORGE: Because I picked up 3D modeling --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Nice, nice.

HEIDI BORGE: Somewhere along the way. But yeah, for my role in it, I'm the programmer. I was the sole artist on the project for the first few years of it. I'm the designer. I'm the writer. Programming is my specialty. That's what I actually got an education for, and everything else I'm sort of learning along the way. Art has been a hobby of mine for a decade, ever since I was about 12 or so, so that one I've been doing for a little while. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of it I've learned through the journey of it all.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: It's incredible, honestly, what you've been able to achieve in this amount of time. Like, this game looks amazing, and now here you are being featured with Xbox at GDC. I'm kind of curious, working with the ID@Xbox program, being part of GDC, what is going through your head with that? What's it been like working with Xbox?

HEIDI BORGE: Oh, it's, I mean as I said at the start, I'm very nervous. It's terrifying, but it's been really amazing and very exciting. I think everything has just become so real, I guess, this year especially, like getting this opportunity to work with Xbox and probably showcase the game for the first time, because this is going to be the first sort of big official showcase of Delphinium, and being able to have that opportunity has been just really, really crazy to me because, you know, working mostly on my own for the last few years, sort of I'm just -- I'm in the corner of, like, my living room right now, and this is like my setup.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

HEIDI BORGE: This is where I spend mostly 90% of my life, and I would never say I'm doing this on my own because I have so many amazing people working with me and so much more support from so many more amazing people, but the day-to-day of working alone, I think there's just moments like this, like getting the chance to work with Xbox, it just sort of built -- the world just opens up a little bit in a way that feels very exciting.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, you found your club for sure. I love that.

HEIDI BORGE: Exactly.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: I'm really stoked for this game.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah, me, too.

CHRIS CHARLA: I know. I just want to play (laughter).

ANNETTE PORTER: And also, congratulations from going from your living room to this just massive stage and getting folks to play your game, and such a big accomplishment, so huge congrats for that.

HEIDI BORGE: Thank you so much.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: All right, for our final interview of the day, we have a really cool one. This game is really innovative with fun puzzles and an interesting concept. It's Screenbound, and here to talk about the game is Will. Will, welcome to the Official Xbox Podcast. How are you doing?

WILL BUCKLE: Great. Thank you very much for having me.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Of course.

WILL BUCKLE: It's really, really exciting to be here, so --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: I mean, honestly, really good to have you here. Clearly a fan of puzzles, Will?

WILL BUCKLE: A little bit, yeah, a little bit. You can see a couple of books in the background there. I love me a good point and click puzzle adventure or just general sort of old-school puzzle games, like Solomon's Quest and stuff like that. So yeah, puzzles are my jam.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: I love that. That was going to be my initial question, was kind of, you know, this game combines 3D and 2D platforming at the same time. It's a very interesting dynamic, and it kind of at times feels like you're playing two games at once, and I guess I'm curious, like was your background in puzzle games the impetus for this design and, like, what inspired you?

WILL BUCKLE: I mean, really, we as the -- we're the developers, but we didn't come up with the initial IP. The initial IP was created by Crescent Moon, who then outsourced us, but we contacted Crescent Moon first just to -- because we loved the gif that they put out there and we said, "We want to work on this because it looks like a really interesting design," and it's been absolutely amazing, like, working with Crescent Moon and his team over there and really bringing this game into something that's quite interesting and not -- really something I've never seen before, so yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, I was going to say, I don't think I've played anything like it, and I guess I didn't know that this was a collaboration. That's really cool.

WILL BUCKLE: Yeah, there's two studios. Just Crescent Moon, the original IP holder, and then we've just been the main developer. So realistically, they just come in and talk to us about how we can develop the idea and then we continue the development from there, really.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Well, that's super interesting, and I will -- I did want to -- there's like an anecdote that I wanted to mention to you that -- Jeff, shout out, Jeff. He couldn't be here today. He's one of the regular hosts on this show, and he had mentioned that it kind of feels like playing Frogger while crossing a busy street, and I'm curious, like, I will say, like, it definitely is more intense than I expected it to be, and maybe it's just because I'm bad at platformers, but I'm curious, like, what are some of the fun challenges in designing a game like this? Because it is such a unique puzzler.

WILL BUCKLE: It is. There's a lot of challenge comes in from just making sure you understand where the player focus is. Is the focus on the 2D? Is the focus on the 3D? And marrying those two together in a relationship that doesn't alienate one or the other. So, for instance, you don't want too much 2D because then they miss what's going on in the 3D. You don't want too much 3D because then you miss what's going on in the 2D. So it's a really special balance between the two and the marriage between the two to really make that game become what it is, really. But it's been an interesting development cycle. There have been a couple of times where levels don't work the way we want to or the way we initially planned them, and then you've got to tweak and develop from there, but all in all, it's been really, really fun to develop and try out and test new ideas and say "look left" and everything's like over on the right, you know, that sort of stuff, so --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh, man, it's got to be hard to balance, like, is this too hard, or is this, you know, not hard enough? I don't know. Like, the idea of, like, developing a game that's explicitly, like puzzles and challenges that exponentially get more difficult as you play, like, that's definitely like -- I don't know. I just can't imagine kind of going through that process.

WILL BUCKLE: Yeah, so you sort of have to onboard the player in a very steady sort of way. So your first half of your game, like the first half of the world set is introducing the mechanics and stuff, and then you can start bringing in that sort of marriage between them, but those last few levels in each world, because we've got many different types, it's not all just side-scroll. We've taken from top-down, and we've got top-down cartridge, and we have ideas and plans for future, but for now development is going to be side-scroll and top-down. But once you get to the back end, you can really push the limits of what you can do within those mechanics and really try and do things that are just wild, and like you say, they are challenging, but, you know, games were made to be challenging as well as rewarding, so --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Super fascinating, honestly. I did want to ask you, and I know we asked Johnny this, we asked Heidi this, but what is it like working with the ID@Xbox program? And we do have some ID folks at the table, so maybe, you know, be careful what you say (laughter), but I am genuinely curious, like, what's it been like to be a part of ID@Xbox, and what's it like getting ready for a big GDC?

WILL BUCKLE: To be fair, it's been really, really, like, exciting to see. I love seeing what's coming in the -- what we're all doing over there and stuff like that. I'm really excited to come over because I've never been to San Francisco GDC. I've been to other sort of gaming events and conferences and stuff, but GDC's one of those that's always sort of missed me by kind of thing, so that'll be super exciting. But in terms of, like, understanding information and onboarding and stuff like that, like genuinely, everyone's been so helpful and so just "here's the information," you know, rather than -- I know some conferences are very much, like, "No, you have to pay this paywall and then you get the hires," and stuff like that, but no, everyone that's come into this event is really, really, you know, everyone wants to meet each other, everyone wants to do interviews, everybody wants to chat to each other about the new tech, the new games, the new fun mechanics that everyone's putting out there, you know. Mixtape looks absolutely amazing, you know, and Delphinium. I'm like, how have I not heard of these, you know? And I'm looking at them now going, I cannot -- genuinely cannot wait for GDC and seeing everything.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: For sure. I mean, that's the beauty of GDC, and frankly, ID@Xbox. Like, not to -- I mean, I'm not on your team, so I can toot your horn, but like, I am such a fan of ID for that reason, is like, I've discovered so many titles through ID@Xbox over the last, you know, years, and just so many games that never maybe would have got the light they needed to truly shine.

ANNETTE PORTER: It's a great space for innovation and, like, Screenbound is just one of those things where you just see and, like, how does this exist? Like, just in my head, just like the technical feat that's required to make something, I guess I think you all have called it maybe "5D" in some cases.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh, man.

WILL BUCKLE: Internally, we've called it "5D," yeah, because it's kind of like 3D and 2D, and dimensionally it doesn't work, but 5D is where it's at.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Mathematically it does, yeah.

CHRIS CHARLA: I think this is definitely a game -- I know it's not anything like it, but as I looked at it and everything, the game that keeps coming to mind is Fez just because it's a game that kind of confounds a lot of your expectations, and Fez I was really fortunate to play, you know, a couple days before it came out, and I think this is another game, you want to play this game day one, before there's any guides, before there's anybody who can tell you the right way to play --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Totally.

CHRIS CHARLA: And just kind of find your own way or get stuck or whatever, but I do think, this is going to be a game, for me anyway, like no guide, no advice.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, going in blind.

CHRIS CHARLA: You just want to suss it out.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, Will, we were so excited to have you on. Good luck to you and the team, man. Thank you so much for being here.

WILL BUCKLE: No worries. I'll see you later.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Take care.

WILL BUCKLE: Thank you very much.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Whew. Big thank-yous to Johnny Galvatron, Heidi, and Will for joining us today. Mixtape, Delphinium, and Screenbound, all very different games, different feels, but just love the passion indie devs are bringing to gaming and having something like the ID@Xbox team and program to help spotlight that kind of stuff, I mean, I got to say it's really cool. Again, I can say that, I'm in hardware, so I'm adjacent, but just love what you guys are doing. Like, if today's any indication, the rest of GDC, like, you guys should feel really great about what you get to do.

ANNETTE PORTER: Oh, thank you.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

CHRIS CHARLA: Yeah, it's super fun.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, it's got to -- yeah, I mean, that's -- if I have any takeaway from this podcast, it's just how much you guys love your jobs and how much fun it is and how jealous I am that I won't be running, and I might have to stow away on a plane very shortly.

ANNETTE PORTER: Yes.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Annette, Chris, thank you guys for putting up with me. Thank you so much for joining. Any final thoughts on GDC, ID@Xbox, anything for the community?

CHRIS CHARLA: Just a huge thank you to all the devs who support Xbox. Huge thank you to all the fans who support the devs. It's, you know, we -- there's tons of work that we always have to do, we always want to do better, and we just appreciate so much that we have this. I'm sure I speak for both of us when I say we're just super thankful to be part of this awesome ecosystem with great devs and great fans.

ANNETTE PORTER: Absolutely, and if you do want to continue supporting indies, there are some things you can check out in the Xbox ecosystem, including Indie Selects. You can get a wonderful curated list of indie titles that you should be playing.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: And that's on the dashboard?

ANNETTE PORTER: Yeah, you can find that in the store. Indie Selects has its own section, and there's just new refreshed collections every week, so there's always something cool to play, so make sure you do that. And then, of course, we have, selfish plug here, the Emerging Creators Collection, which is a wonderful list of titles from the Developer Acceleration Program that I also encourage you all to check out, so --

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, definitely.

ANNETTE PORTER: Show indies some love.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah, love that, love that. Thank you both for joining today. Indie devs, the shining stars of our industry, yeah, we can't thank you all enough. But I think that's going to do it for this episode of the Official Xbox Podcast. We hope you all are as excited for GDC as we are this week. I know it's going to be great. Thanks again to Annette, to Chris, Johnny Galvatron, Heidi, Will, all for joining the show today. Thank you all for watching and listening. We'll see you in the next one. Bye-bye for now. [ Music ]