Diving Deeper Into Indiana Jones and The Great Circle | Official Xbox Podcast

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JOE SKREBELS: Hello and welcome to the official Xbox Podcast. I am Joe Skrebels, Editor-in-Chief of Xbox Wire, and I am incredibly excited to say that we are here to talk Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. You have probably already seen that there is a near 15-minute deep dive into the game going through things like story, combat, puzzles and a lot more ahead of its December 9th launch. And with that video covering a lot of topics, I wanted take that deep dive and dive even deeper into it. And that is why we have got Axel and Jens from Machine Games who have joined us. Thank you very much for taking the time. I know it must be incredibly busy for you right now.

AXEL TORVENIUS: A bit, but it's a pleasure to be here and having the opportunity to talk with you about it.

JOE SKREBELS: Well, we're gonna talk a lot about it.

AXEL TORVENIUS: Cool.

JOE SKREBELS: So, I have been lucky enough to play two hours of this game already, which has been incredible. But for a lot of people, this deep dive might be their first really extended look at how this game fits together and all the various moving pieces that are there. So, before we kick it off, I'd love you to give a sort of topline summary of this game and the various elements of it that people are going to get their hands on very soon.

AXEL TORVENIUS: Yeah, absolutely. So, Indiana and Jones and the Great Circle, it is a first-person cinematic adventure action game, and it's developed here in Sweden by Machine Games in close collaboration with Lucasfilm Games. And the game is set in between the events of Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Last Crusade. And one of the main missions with the game and the purpose and kind of one of the driving forces behind it has been to make sure that we put the player into Indiana Jones' shoes. We really, really want you to feel like Indiana Jones. So, with every whip crack, with every shot fired from your revolver, and with every punch to an enemy face, we really want you to feel like Indiana Jones.

JOE SKREBELS: And it really does, and I think you'll get a real of that as we go through. So, kicking off this video, we start with this cut scene that seems to lead us into an action segment that looks to be just kind of a moment after a puzzle has been solved. So, can you tell us where we are here and how we've got to this place?

JENS ANDERSSON: Well, I don't want to spoil too much. Like there's some sand going on around here, so maybe you can figure out, but this is sort of the more desert-y part, but this is a very special moment in the game. It's one of those places where Indy finds himself in these kinds of ancient places. And I love this part of him like turning away as he destroys this really ancient artifact for whatever reason. There's a lot of going on here that makes sense as you play through the story, but it's one of those really Indy moments in the game that kicks off this series of events that are very Indy like.

AXEL TORVENIUS: This is a good example when it comes to the type of environments and which type of settings that you can be expected to come across throughout the entire game experience, mysterious places that get your brains spinning and your the cogwheels ticking like, "What is this? What happened here? And most of all, how do I get out of this mess that I ended up in?" So, it's a good example on some of the very spectacular events that you will find yourself in in the game.

JENS ANDERSSON: And we often talk about this game as being adventure first and everything, and this particular scene is interesting because it's adventure, but at the same time we have these action elements that are so important for Indiana Jones setting up this trap that gets the adrenaline going.

JOE SKREBELS: I think it's super interesting as you say like so many games have that idea of like this is a puzzle section, this is an action section. That feels like such a seamless segue from clearly a puzzle has been solved and then we're into this moment of action out of nowhere and that kind of unexpected element, which does feel more like cinematic because you wouldn't have chapter headings that said, "This is now a puzzle." So, yeah, I think it's a really nice way of kind of showing that off. Here, we see Marshall College. This is a hallmark of a classic Indiana Jones story, but this is a very specific point in the timeline, as you said. So, we have a lot of very traditional ideas about Indy, but who's this Indy? Are there specific things about this point of time for the character that are defining him in your game?

AXEL TORVENIUS: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think there are two ways that you can answer this or like there are two portions to the answer that at least I can try to cover a bit. One of them is that we portray the Indiana Jones as the world gets to see him basically for the first time as he gets presented to the world in Raiders of the Lost Ark. That's where we've been looking most heavily in terms of reference and inspiration to try to capture that version of the beloved character. He's very human. He's a teacher. At the same time, he's also kind of a superhero, but maybe not with superpowers, but this kind of action man. And at the same time, there's this great warmth and depth with him as a character. And all of those components and character traits is what we've been trying to portray and push forward. And that's like one part of the answer. We want you to experience that. But on the other hand, obviously, we're making a game. We're not making movies. We have player agency, and we have the freedom of choice. So, you want to make sure that the Indiana Jones that you will experience as a player is the Indiana Jones you want to experience. So, if you prefer to be more towards stealth or if you want to go more brawling and fighting with your bare knuckles more or even pull out your revolver a little bit more from time to time, that's perfectly fine because that's what we want to make sure that you as a player experience, your own Indiana Jones experience.

JENS ANDERSSON: It is the kind of approach we have to development here at Machine Games very much, like starting off with the story, starting off with a character, what would you want to do being in this here? And that's why we have puzzles in the game because it's something we feel fits into the universe of Indiana and also something you'd want to do as a player. So, everything spins off from there throughout.

AXEL TORVENIUS: Yeah. And talking about balancing, Joe, I mean, it has obviously been a lot of work making sure that we get the balance right in between how much gun play should there be, the length of the puzzles, how long are the stealth sections or when we do allow have for certain type of game mechanics and getting that kind of balance right has obviously been a lot of tweaking and hard work from everyone within the team.

JOE SKREBELS: Coming to the game itself, we just saw a section of the Vatican, which was a section of the game I got to play a few weeks ago, and something really occurred to me while I was playing, which is despite being "linear," it felt very open to how I wanted to get to that objective in a way that I really wasn't expecting. So, was the design idea here you're kind of giving people a place to get to, but giving them the freedom to get there in the way they want to?

JENS ANDERSSON: Absolutely. And as you're saying, like there's a wide range from strictly linear roller coaster rides to these very open sections. Exploration is really important even in the most linear sections of the game. It's something we want to reward the player with all the time. And we've designed the game around that because he is an explorer as a character, and we like that in terms of game design as well. So, it's important.

AXEL TORVENIUS: And it also ties in very tightly with one of the core focuses that we had was to make sure that's why we're talking that this is an adventure action and not an action adventure. If you're start to dissect the aspect of adventure, what is that? Obviously, a big part of adventure is exploration, getting the sensation that you are actually uncovering and discovering secrets and hidden gems throughout the entirety of the experience. So, there's a lot of win-win with that.

JOE SKREBELS: Yeah, that's the thing. I felt almost like naughty for not doing it the way it wanted me to. I was like, "I'm just going to try climbing up these battlements and jumping onto a zip line instead of fighting all these guys." And it worked. And I was like, "Well, that is really nice." We're seeing a lot of puzzles here. One thing that I'd love to ask is, "How do you design a video game puzzle that feels right for Indiana Jones? Like what is the vibe that you have to capture while still making it an interesting thing to play?"

JENS ANDERSSON: It's something we had to figure out throughout the development. Puzzles is actually something that Machine Games and the team as a whole has not too much experience with. So, figuring out what that was for this game, that was an interesting journey, and where we ended up with is a really broad variety of what puzzles are. Doing puzzles in a big game that's trying to be both challenging and accessible at the same time is a challenge. How do we make sure the players don't get stuck? So, we had to work out puzzles that could be challenging. At the same time, we needed to make sure there's a way for players who doesn't necessarily want to fiddle and think and all that kind of stuff. So, having a really robust hint system built into it as well was really important. So, a lot of effort and work has gone into getting all those components to gel.

AXEL TORVENIUS: Yeah. Obviously, we see puzzles and traps in the movies. And most of the time, that's like pulling a lever or stepping on the pressure plate and something gets triggered. But when you start to expand on that and making a video game out of it, like what is actually leading up to that or what happens if that lever is broken and you need to find another part to make it work? And I think one of the beauty that has happened throughout the entire puzzle work with the puzzle team and the designers is that the puzzles have almost got their own life. It's like an entity within the game and spreads out. It's not only you going into a room. It's like, "Oh my god, here's a wall with some cogs and I need to solve it." Yes. Sometimes, we have those scenarios also. But sometimes, the puzzles just expand so much more and you need to run some distances to find clues or collect things to put you in a position to solve it. And I think that's why some of the more larger puzzles that we have now in game is very rewarding because it puts you on a path and it forces you to platform around and actually dissect the environment and use your head. And so, I think some of them are very rewarding.

JOE SKREBELS: I think one of the things that's definitely worth pointing out and it's made clear in here, but getting your hands on the game, you really see it, is kind of the delineation between the main quest puzzles and optional puzzles. And in the Giza section, I was practically tripping over tombs without realizing that there was another puzzle. Like there was a bit where I thought I was crawling into a back entrance to a main story quest. And actually, no, it's a whole other tomb with a different puzzle in it, which is, A, incredibly satisfying in terms of exploration. It's always nice to find more stuff. But I wondered how you think around especially with your ideas of challenge and accessibility, can optional puzzles get harder because people don't have to complete them? Do they have to be smaller because they're optional or do you have large-scale optional puzzles that people can find? Like how did you think about bringing both those sides together?

JENS ANDERSSON: Exactly what you're saying. Like we have a substantial part of the game that is optional, especially for the open sections. If you keep your blinds on, you can go through those and just experience a third of the major content there or even less. There's plenty of stuff to stumble on. Finding a mystery around every corner was kind of one of the things that we wanted. We wanted to give you that feeling that there are things to discover if you just look. And not only small things that you say. There are big pieces of content that you wouldn't encounter unless you go off the beaten path.

JOE SKREBELS: And we've talked a lot about the adventure, so let's talk about the action, stealth and combat, which that's a lot of your minute-to-minute play in this game. One thing that really struck me when I was playing and I think you kind of see an element of here is combat initially in the early stages was a lot harder than I thought it would be. Like the melee combat and really getting your head around not being hit as much as hitting feels like a key part of that. Was a big part of your thinking here sort of fighting smarter rather than harder in that sense or at least until you get some of those skill book upgrades later on?

JENS ANDERSSON: Well, it's about the character again. Like coming back to like what would Indy do, what would you do as Indy, so it's about setting the right expectations for the player. This is not a game where you just rush straight into a group of enemies and expect to take them down. You are not a superhero. So, stealth is going to be the starting point for a lot of different scenarios in this game, but it's Indy. The majority of the combat in this game is going to be hand-to-hand using your whip and using the items around you to overcome these situations you put yourself in.

JOE SKREBELS: I love the items around you element as well, that idea that almost everything or at least everything I think I came across was a distraction or a weapon and that kind of idea of things going wrong and just being like, "Well, I've got this bottle that I was going to try and distract this guy with. I might as well throw it at his face."

AXEL TORVENIUS: It ties into like another important aspect of the of the game or of the IP, which is humor as well because if you don't have humor within an Indiana Jones product, I don't think it would really feel like Indiana Jones. So, it's an important beat that we've been trying to massage throughout the entire production cycle, and we have that represented in many different aspects. Obviously, in video, in cutscenes and how people move and animate. But obviously, also in the minute-to-minute gameplay just to make sure that we capture that kind of not fully slapstick, but it needs to have a sensation of humor even in the fighting. And you can hear some fantastic lines from Indy played by Troy Baker as he has fun remarks on the enemies going down. "That's professor to you," as he knocks them out. It just adds to the whole combat experience.

JOE SKREBELS: And then, you've got the whip as well. And one thing I noticed here that I definitely didn't notice while I was playing is it feels like the whip is sort of location specific in combat where you hit people. So, it looks like you can disarm people, you can pull them over.

JENS ANDERSSON: Yes, you can absolutely. You can whip people in the face and they react to that or you can disarm them. Basically, in combat --

AXEL TORVENIUS: You can pull them.

JENS ANDERSSON: Yeah, you have two options to use the whip. You can crack with it or you can attack with it. And you can attach to enemies and pull them into this kind of hand-to-hand combat "clinch mode" as we call it, grab mode.

AXEL TORVENIUS: You will encounter throughout the game that depending on what type of opponent you have in front of you, they will also react differently if you try to whip pull them. If it's a small soldier or maybe a very large soldier, they will have different type of strength and also react differently when you're trying to do the same type of action.

JOE SKREBELS: That's great. And I think one thing that really strikes just as you watch this footage is how little stuff is on the screen beyond the game itself. That feels like a very conscious decision to, again, you're looking through Indy's eyes and so you don't want to distract. Was that kind of the philosophy going in there?

AXEL TORVENIUS: Yeah. No, I mean, I think that we have the tradition at MG to always try to minimize the amount of UI elements on the screen. I mean, we love to get as immersed into the experience as possible. The more things you have on screen, it kind of breaks that immersion a bit. And obviously, you can't have it completely helpless. I mean, you can maybe, but we don't have that for this game. So, at least trying to get it down to a minimum has been one of the focuses. And I think that we have a nice balance now towards the end where we have the essentials. The necessary pieces of information is there for you to be able to understand the mechanics and perform accordingly. But yeah, it's absolutely a design choice. And that ties into becoming the character and being immersed into this world of Indy.

JENS ANDERSSON: It's of course a preference for us as a developer, but I also think in many ways it's just good design. You want to show the stuff that's relevant. So, it's about showing what's crucial and only that.

AXEL TORVENIUS: And I mean, it's also one of the big challenges trying to make sure when we're talking about play navigation and how then UI as well to make sure that the game is informing you or helping you understand where to go, where to look, without potentially having neon signs linking, "This direction, please."

JOE SKREBELS: Yeah, it feels like it plays into the fact that we're in such an analog world as well. This is a place without technology that we have now, so it does make more sense that you have to pull out a physical map and have a look at it rather than a mini map being on your screen at all times. He's not wearing like a space marines helmet or something, so like that really fits. And I think that's one of the things that I came out of particularly the open section really loving is that feeling of, "I'm in this place, I need to look down at my map, I need to look up and make sure I'm looking at the thing I think I am and how to get from place to place." It really feels like you're using that to make people learn those open areas and understand where they are more intuitively than you might do if there are markers on the floor or a mini map pointing you in the right direction. Was that the thinking there?

JENS ANDERSSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think like mini map is sort of core to what we don't want. And I know that's been talked about generally in terms of design. If you put a mini map on screen, that's the thing that people are looking at. We have beautiful art. It's an a wonderful world to explore, so of course we want people to look at that. That's why we like our feature like with a camera, for example. It has you look at the world rather than look at UI or prompts or whatever. We track all the progress in the game in the journal, and it's a beautiful journal. And it starts empty, and you fill it out, so it's your journey throughout the game. It's all part of the world and your experience. So, it's that kind of marriage between the player experience and what you see in the game is really important.

AXEL TORVENIUS: And those physical maps we're talking about, I mean, it fits nicely with the concept of having a physical journal that actually holds the information that you gather. And as Jens said, you're building up your adventure. You start with it blank. And then as you progress, it will get filled with scribbles, with notes, with pictures, with photos, with letters, with postcards, with small tickets, ends and pieces, and you slowly start to like puzzle together or getting the whole picture of like this adventure that you're on. And that ties in so nicely with kind of the aspect of making sure that this feels like a grounded experience, you are in the world, and I think that's a really important part of it, that you're part of this world now, you're Indiana Jones.

JOE SKREBELS: Here's a really dorky question I just thought of. When you've got the journal, do you have to consult with someone about what Indiana Jones' handwriting looks like?

JENS ANDERSSON: We just decided.

AXEL TORVENIUS: Yeah, I mean, more or less. One of the beautiful aspects of working together with Lucasfilm Games is they are of course like the experts on Indiana Jones. We've been granted access to their archive to be able to see and peak behind the curtain basically of old concepts and photos from the earlier movies. And obviously, all of these things are vetted and run through Lucasfilm Games also in this continuous collaboration.

JENS ANDERSSON: But the good thing is of course that they understand that this is a game. There are things that we need to do that they don't necessarily do in the movies and vice versa.

JOE SKREBELS: So, we've talked about a lot of stuff today. There is a lot more to talk about that we haven't had time to get to. One thing that we haven't talked about really at all is the breadth of locations in this game and how many places we're going. We see a lot of them in here, some that people have played and press and media already and some that they haven't, but I wanted to ask a sort of teasy question if you're able to answer it, which is, "Are there more places we haven't seen that we'll be going in this game?"

AXEL TORVENIUS: No, we have shown everything there is in the game. There's nothing more to explore. It's done and over. No, jokes aside, yeah, absolutely. There's plenty more that we haven't shown. And without giving away too much spoilers, we have put a lot of focus on trying to make sure that the entirety of the experience throughout the game is supposed to have this very interesting pacing, a visual pacing, a gameplay pacing, location pacing. So, I mean, the focus has been to try to make sure that it's something new and refreshing within each new environment that you will stumble upon.

JOE SKREBELS: It's very exciting. I'm very interested to see where else we could go. Obviously, we see a lot of Indy as you would expect in this deep dive, but we also see Gina throughout who is a companion character that's looking for her sister. I'm sure you don't want to give away too much of the mystery around that particular quest, but what can you tell us about Gina and her part in this story and also the story of the various allies we see in here as well who we don't get introduced to in the same way?

AXEL TORVENIUS: Absolutely. I mean, Gina is super interesting as a character throughout the entire game, and she has her own story arc. As you say, there's something with her sister missing. There's interesting and mysterious beats to her story arc that you need to unravel as you play throughout. And she's not just the sidekick that runs along. She has a very important part of this story that we're telling. Obviously, she's played by Alessandra Mastronardi. She's a fantastic actress that we've been working closely with obviously throughout the entire production, and it's been really amazing seeing the character of Gina being portrayed and written obviously on paper, but then presented to Alessandra and how she has taken that character portrayal and fully expanded and making it into a really, really cool character. And seeing her playing against Troy Baker that plays Indiana Jones of course has been very, very rewarding and fun. And other characters in the game. The best villain so far I think Machine Games have ever done was --

JENS ANDERSSON: It's amazing.

AXEL TORVENIUS: He's amazing. He's very, very scary and nasty, played by Marios Gavrilis, also amazing talent. And I think that a lot of the quality that we see in the portrayal of these characters is obviously thanks to all of these amazing talents and actors that we have. We have Locus played by Tony Todd, also amazing performance. It's been a pure bliss to see them in the mocap studio and running around and doing all the crazy actions that they're doing.

JOE SKREBELS: I think having a high bar for a Machine Games villain in particular is -- yeah, I'm very much looking forward to seeing how that plays out. That is about all we have time for. I want to say a massive thank you for taking the time, especially so close to launch. Axel and Jens, thank you so much for joining us and offering up so many juicy details as we went through. And Indiana Jones and the Great Circle is launching for Xbox Series X and S, Windows PC, and Game Pass on December 9th. If you pre-order the premium or collector's editions, you can start playing three full days early, which I will 100% be doing. And all that's left to say is thank you. Good luck with the launch. I cannot wait to see more of this. And yeah, I look forward to Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.

AXEL TORVENIUS: Thank you for having us.

JENS ANDERSSON: Thank you so much.

SPEAKER 2: Play it day one with Game Pass.