Talking Skull & Bones, Banishers and Gameheads

ANNOUNCER: Games in this podcast range from E to M.

- What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Official Xbox Podcast, the only podcast coming to you from inside Xbox. So that has to make us number one in someone's heart-- even if it's only our hearts, OK? It's an honor and privilege to be a part of your week, whether you're at home, on the drive to work or school, wherever you're watching us. And again, you can do that on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and other services around the globe.

Of course, last week was a little bit of a different show. But we're back doing what we do best, which is talk about games, give you recommendations, all that good jazz. We also, a little bit later on, have an interview with the creator of Gameheads, Damon Packwood. In celebration of Black History Month, we're going to be talking about how-- what he's doing to build diversity in the game developer scene. And so, so much talk, so much video games. We're going to have a great time. But before we do that, I have the honor and privilege of introducing to you my two amazing co-hosts. Beginning with the terrific, the tremendous, the talented, Tina Amini.

- I see you offered the alliteration there. Ah.

- Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was going to intro you first, and I was like, let's get the T-words in there.

- Yeah. Let's get the T's out of the way. I'm good, you know. Coming off of a long weekend. This was last week. Always good to reunite with people and also come back home promptly, so that I could have the long weekend to catch up on all my Infinite Wealth. But we'll talk about that. We'll talk about tha in a little bit.

- I'm excited to hear about Infinite Wealth, because I haven't played yet, and I'm itching to play. But before we even get into that, I got to call out your background. What-- Tina, for those who are not watching and may be listening, what is going on in your background?

- A couple things. There's a couple things going on. I've got an awesome Starfield poster, signed by the dev team. I've got some spoilers from a game called Inside. If-- I will not point it out, because it's genuinely a spoiler. But if you know, you know. And I also have a special guest, lion Amini over here.

She's just taking a nap on the couch behind me. But I think, probably, we were all chatting when we were signing on, and I've got this-- it's like a sun lamp projector thing. And I haven't quite figured out the color scheme, or the placement, because it gets cut off by my couch and plant, and ceiling, and all that. But I thought it might work for a nice, special work from home podcast episode.

- I love it. It's a bit of a pop. It's, you know, a nice little bit of color. A stark contrast to my background, I will say that. All right. And as you can see, if you're watching, we have a very special guest making his first appearance of the year. We only allow him to be on one show a year, of course.

- Yeah.

- The internet can't handle it.

- That's right. Yes.

- The eccentric, the excellent--

- One more.

- There's one more I'll figure it out.

- One more.

- It's Ethan Rothamel.

- Oh, OK. I'll take it. I'll take it. Thanks for having me on the show, everybody. It's super awesome to be here, and honestly, kind of weird to think that, like, this is the longest conversation, Tina, you and I will probably have had. And it's going to be recorded for posterity, which is fun. And then Malik, we haven't had--

- Our first meeting.

- Exactly. This is great.

- Not really. We've chatted, but like, online, like, you know.

- Yeah, exactly.

- Through-- through our text exchanges. Exactly.

- 100%. Kind of like how it happens in this industry. But I love that everybody gets to join us in this first conversation. It's kind of wild. And Malik, we haven't hashed out you leaving me in Seattle. So we get to have some of that conversation today too. So, you know, it's kind of a reunion.

- Everyone listening thought this was going to be a podcast. It's really just a therapy session between two best friends.

- Yeah, yeah.

- I'm mediating.

- If you're joining this podcast coming in hot from last week, prepare to be disappointed. Because we're just going to be hashing things out in here.

- So Ethan, you haven't been on in a while.

- Right.

- For those who may have missed your last kind of appearance, what do you do here at Xbox?

- Oh, that's a good question, Malik. So I am on the design for Xbox partner hardware team, which is a bit of a mouthful. But you know, I think the quick and dirty of it all is kind of, if you have hardware that works with your console and it's not made by us, first party, my team probably had a hand in at least influencing that hardware, or working with that company. We kind of are the licensing arm, the mobile gaming arm, of Xbox. So I get to play with toys all day. So you can see some of my awesome toys back there. That's kind of my job. It's literally a dream come true. I love it every day. It's a joy.

- Nice. Well, I'm sure people are going to be picking apart your background, trying to see what's back there.

- Yeah, can't wait.

- Yeah. But it's great to, again-- great to do a show with you. We did 104 episodes of a weekly show on Mixer, Tips and Tricks, the number one weekly show on Mixer. I'm glad I get to say that now.

But anyway, yeah. It's good to have you all here. Good to talk about video games, and that's exactly what we're going to get into. Because we're going to talk about what we've been playing. And usually, we go through each person and kind of talk about what we're playing, but there's one game that I see here on my screen that both of you have been playing, that we haven't really talked too much about on this show, which is Palworld. So I'm just going to open it up. I haven't played. What have I been missing? Tina, kick it off. Am I missing the best game in the world?

TINA AMINI: You know, it's interesting, because I feel like, increasingly, there are fewer and fewer opportunities to play games with friends. And I have a lot of long distance friends. So this is such a perfect equilibrium for what I need out of that experience, and it kind of leverages your different skill sets, too.

So you're going in and world building, like base building, you're interacting with the pals in the environment, you're figuring out, like, each of their strengths and weaknesses. You're building up towards these dungeons, these bosses. Like, just very familiar game mechanics, and like, from very different genres, all kind of come together in this amalgamation that is like, such a great, you know, long distance friendship kind of bonding experience.

So I've like, absolutely been loving it. The game is in Early Access, or Game Preview, if you're playing on console like I am. So there's like, still a lot that you're experiencing alongside the developers. And this is actually, for a game that has exploded on Steam charts and on our records, like for Game Pass and on console, it's made by a relatively small team.

So I just have a lot of, like, respect for the amount of work and pressure that must come alongside that, too, like, having such a big audience in such a way as well. So, kudos to them, and also to everyone else who's going through the farming experiences that-- I'm not quite there yet. It's-- I would say it's kind of a slow build. So I'm very familiar with the world and mechanics, but I'm not quite at like-- I have a base that's just for my pals to go into labor, to just produce, like, weapons and ammunition for me yet. But I am looking forward to the day. It's nearly there. Nearly there.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Everything you said, nail on the head. Like, I couldn't-- like, so well said, Tina. Because everything you've said is kind of right on the money.

My-- I've been really enjoying the game. I've been playing a lot with friends. I will say there's like, an element-- and this is to say, like, we talk about this, Malik. I feel bad doing bad things in games. Like, I'm just-- I just hate being mean. I can't do evil runthroughs in Baldur's Gate. I just can't. I feel bad.

And so similarly, I've hit, like, this wall in Palworld where I can't, like, progress, because I'm not-- I'm not that guy that's going to build the factory where they're all sitting at production lines. I almost feel bad for these pals. Like, I just want to train them, have friends, and be buddies. And so I have capped myself a bit. But I am very much of the mind of like, when I play these kind of crafting games, it's very much all about dressing my doll up. Like, I got to get the coolest outfit. I got to have my house looking nice.

If you know me, I always build a town with a tavern, and have like, a tavern for like, all the random players when we play in dedicated servers and stuff. It doesn't matter what game. No Man's Sky, Fallout 76, Palworld. I got to have my tavern.

But I'm loving it. It is just like Tina said-- an amalgamation of so many features that are fun. And it is just like, at its core, a fun game, and probably one of the most fun Game Preview games I've ever played. Yeah. Kudos to the devs. It's really a joy.

TINA AMINI: On the line of coming-- like, people with different skill sets kind of coming in and collaborating in a really nice way, like, I'm only playing with one other person right now, and I'd love to play with more, because, he's very like, no, we have to mine the ore and make ingots, because it's so important for the production of like half the things we're working on. I'm like, yes, very much so, but can't we like, do a little bit of that and then explore and like, unveil more of the map, and then come back home, like in a natural sort of cadence?

And then you have people who are builders like yourself, Ethan.

- Totally.

- Like, you know, there's, I think, several types of fireplaces. Like, there isn't just one type, I think. I'm pretty sure.

- Yes.

- So it's just the decoration that you can do, and I'm with you. I feel really bad for the pals, too. Because when you go to your, like, deck of pals, each one of them makes a cute little squee noise. So I'm like, oh, no. I killed so many of you, though. And you made that sound at the end. And, you know, now some of you just work for me.

- Yeah.

- But at the same time, you can like, make them nicer beds and create, like, little spa environments. So there's things you can do to give back to the pals too.

- Yeah. Yeah.

- You all and your high morality, it's too much for me. Listen, I have no problem being the bad guy, making sure that I do everything I need to do to get-- to be the number one pal trainer. I don't know what you want to call it.

- Yeah.

- But it's awesome. I think we announced a few weeks ago, 7 million players on Xbox. And so it's great to see so many people jumping in. And I think, you know, you all have been touching on it a little bit-- those experiences where we all play together are some of the best.

- Yeah.

- Because we're deciding how we want to play-- if we want to be good or bad. And just moving towards that objective. So it's great. And yeah, I think-- I got to jump in. I got to find the time to jump in.

- That's hard.

- But another great game, and again, as Tina mentioned, Game Preview, so really, the developers are still building the game. So make sure you give them that feedback.

Now, Tina, you mentioned a little bit earlier, you've been playing-- you alluded to it. Like A Dragon Infinite Wealth. Tell me why it's the best game ever made, because I haven't started it, but it is right there waiting for me.

- It is so good to be back in that environment. Like, you almost forget. So if you've played any of the now known as Like A Dragon series, it's very familiar. There's a lot to do in the world. There's a main story-- actually, talking about morality, I think that's a huge crux of the storytelling, too, which is so fun for me.

Because I love characters that like, deliberate with that. And that's kind of their motivating factor. You don't always get those types of characters in games. So it is both that familiarity, and just like that general vibe. And all of the side missions that you can do, and side people that you can meet, and building up your rapport with your companions, like, just a warm blanket, honestly, this video game. It makes me feel so good every time I play it.

Whereas, there are a lot of games that I'm kind of stressed out while playing, which is fine, because it's scratching a different itch. And like, it's making me be more competitive for example. And that's the drive and motivation to me, playing that game. And it's me unwinding from work, in a very different kind of a way, where I'm like, oh, my kill-death ratio. But this is just the warm blanket way of winding down from the day, is just the most preferable way. Like, I'm so glad that there's another chapter for me to explore.

Ichiban Kasuga has got to be like, one of the nicest protagonists of all time. He's just always saying and doing the right thing, even when he's not. And I think that's the beauty of this game, that like, there's so much to touch on, because there's all the little mini games. And they're all fun in their own right. And it straddles this line of like, how it's kind of contributing to your character arcs and your world building at the same time, as it's sort of illuminating like-- it's goofy and funny, and playful, and like, kind of touching on that, like, Like A Dragon vibe.

But at the same time, there's a lot of like, real, like, real talk elements in the game too. Like, a lot of moments where you know, a side quest you'll come upon as someone's struggling in their career, and you know, they feel like their chosen path in their line of work kind of puts them in this position where, you know, people around them don't understand. And like, you know, it's always the musical change, when someone's going into real talk mode. There's that music comes down. It's very quintessentially Like A Dragon.

And you just know, it's like, oh, yeah, we're having a deep conversation now. Like, we're going to really reflect together now. And I just love it. It is so sincere and heartwarming, and goofy, and it's just positive vibes all around. I'm absolutely loving my time in it. I think I'm at Chapter 4. So I'm, you know, a couple hours into Hawaii, officially.

- Wow.

- But there's just tons of Japanese culture, tons of characters that they somehow have like, written into the story to make work, but they're also in Hawaii. It does really, really work, though. So I'm like, fully enjoying being reunited with everyone and everything. And in this, like, new, beautiful, sunny landscape setting, too.

- Yeah.

- Dang, you sold it. I mean, honestly. You love this game, too, right? Yeah, I know. This is exactly what I was thinking. Like, I was going to bring that up, because you, Jeff, Tina, like, all love this. I've never played them. But I love these kind of games.

- Oh, man.

- Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I hadn't played a Yakuza game until Yakuza Like a Dragon came into Game Pass. And I was like, looking for something to play one night. And I was like, all right, let me just give it a try. And the opening scene in Yakuza Like a Dragon caught me-- and they're very long cutscenes in this game, but I love them because they're so well-produced.

But what Tina was saying, like, there's so many different mini games, that, it's really many games inside of one game. But the thing that I love the most, to what Tina said, is just this kind of like, naive sort of optimism and, like, genuine sincerity from Ichiban, that I just love to see. And it's kind of endearing.

- Yeah.

- And so I highly recommend anyone who hasn't played a Yakuza game, or Like a Dragon now, to give it a shot. And I guarantee you'll love some portion of the game, if not the whole thing. It is one of the greatest series.

- Where should you start, as like-- what's the first one I should play?

- Well, I was going to say-- you can-- we did a episode a few weeks ago with Jeff and Brittney Brombacher, who, they went through the whole thing. They are like the massive Yakuza and Like a Dragon fans. And so, they are going to give you the bet. I would highly recommend anyone who's looking on where to start to go back and check that episode out, because I am a noob. I'm a noob that loves the game, but a noob nonetheless, for sure.

- Yeah, and I'd say, like, it's-- they do a really good job about recapping little moments. Because I remember, like, from, example, when it was known as Yakuza Like a Dragon, when the, kind of, series started to shift in this direction, there are things that happen in that game that are referenced in Infinite Wealth. So if you have played it, Like a Dragon, the first-- however we're describing that-- I've lost track of our timelines now, and renaming and rebranding. But if you played that game, you'll remember specific storylines. But they do a really good job of like, doing a quick kind of flashback in the moment.

So you don't have as great of an appreciation where I'm like, oh my God, I remember that quest. And you know, the approach and the silliness of it, you'll get a little-- you still get a little bit of that flashback, just so that you have an understanding of, oh, I'm supposed to care in this moment. Like, this is a referential thing, like, very cool of the devs to consider how to integrate those things over into Hawaii.

So totally fine to start wherever. Because there's an argument to be had about, you know, being part of the zeitgeist of launch, right? Like being part of the conversation alongside when everyone else is playing. Like, appointment viewing TV show watching kind of a thing.

- 100%. Yeah.

- 1,000%, even.

- Now, Ethan--

- Oh.

- I just have to one up you, you know?

- Wow.

- Had to one up you.

- OK. Jeez.

- It doesn't go much higher than 1,000, does it?

- I feel like there's some numbers. But that's fine. That's fine.

- There's probably a few numbers above that, but, Ethan, now, you've been playing a game by one of my favorite developers, Don't Nod.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah.

MALIK PRINCE: A new game that just came out-- Banishers Ghost of New Eden. Tell me a little bit about what that game is all about, because I've been seeing people talk about it. And it just sounds amazing.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah. So it came out the day before Valentine's Day, if I recall, which is very fitting for the story. Which is, you know, it follows two banishers, which are essentially like ghost hunters, you know? And they're in love. And it's kind of a beautiful story. I mean, if you know Don't Nod, it's just, they're gripping storytellers, is the word I keep using. And right out the gates, I am sucked in. It takes place in New England in the late 1600's. It's creepy. But not like too scary. Not like, straight up horror, like a Resident Evil. It's more just like eerie. For me, it's scary enough. Like, I was screaming. I get scared so easily. But I love that genre.

But I cannot convey to you how emotional the story is. It's heavy. It's probably the opposite of Yakuza--

TINA AMINI: Infinite Wealth.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: In terms of-- Yeah. It is a heavy story. It's really kind of a downer, at least in the first few hours. But in a good way. Like, I was so sucked in. You know? And it is a really cool, kind of like Spiritfarer and games that deal with death. It's a lot about dealing with loss. It's a lot of, you know, you talking to people that are damaged or, you know, hurt or some way of reeling from losing somebody. And you're just trying to help bring people peace. So it's got this LA Noir vibe, where you're like, problem solving and crime solving. You have to find hints to like, why is the ghost haunting somebody. You know, what's going on? Why do they linger?

It's, you know, open world. It's-- combat can be a little stiff, but generally, really good, really entertaining combat. The more combos you get, the less it feels that way. So it's a little slow to start, but you dive in, you get more abilities. And it really picks up.

But it does just generally feel, from an RPG standpoint, it's like a slower game. It's a little bit slower pace. And it's a good thing. Like, you marinate in the story. You marinate in the characters. Every cutscene, similarly to what we were talking about earlier, is like, a little bit longer, but like, compelling. Great acting, great, great actors. Like, just everything about it.

I haven't finished it yet, but I am, like, every day after work, trying to dive in for more, because I just love it. And I love the folks at Don't Nod. Nod. Just shout out to them. They just make great stories. It's crazy.

- And you are actually like, playing as the two protagonists, right?

- Yes.

- And there's like a specific combat, and obviously, story dynamic there. Like, I've seen some of the exploration, like, you swap between the two.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Exactly.

TINA AMINI: To kind of leverage their different abilities. Yeah.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Right. So Red, who is the Scotsman, he is kind of your tether to the real world, and the mortal plane. And he is who you tend to be most of the time, but really, you can kind of switch to either whenever you want. And yeah, like, there's great combat combos where they have benefits to who you're fighting, you know. She's better at fighting possessed creatures. He's better at fighting straight up specters, things like this.

And in addition to that, you know, she can see things that Red cannot see-- Antea can. So it's really a fun way to kind of explore the world. And you get to see the map twice, right? Like, when you switch between them, like, so much can change in a different zone, in an area that may unlock secrets to a quest, that may just unlock loot. It really is a unique game in terms of mechanics. And that is an additional reason it makes it so fun.

- And I know you said you're still getting through the game--

- Right.

- But my understanding is like, there's choices that you can make that impact the storytelling too. And from what I've understood, it's actually quite impactful. Like, there are--

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yes.

TINA AMINI: Like, these, really big, serious moments, which I love. I love fretting over, like, oh, God, like what are all the implications and consequences of this, like, microsecond of a decision that I'm making right now. I love that kind of feeling.

- It's great. And don't look anything up, folks. Like, I feel like games are always better if you don't look up the best outcome for choices. Looking at you, Baldur's Gate players. But I think that, truly, it is like, crazy how much it impacts the story, and how hard some of the decisions are. Like, it's like-- like, I compared it to LA Noir earlier.

There are, like, conclusions to crimes-- or not crimes, but like, cases, they call them, for finding these ghosts, that are like, I don't who the culprit is. You know? I don't necessarily know why the spirit lingers here, or whose fault it is that the spirit lingers here, and some of these decisions come into play, and you're just kind of like, I don't know. I sat at some of those screens for like 10 minutes, you know? Like, what am I supposed to do? Yeah. It really does make for just a game that sucks you in and keeps you sucked in.

- That's something I always loved about the Telltale series, is like, sometimes there is no good decision.

- Right, yeah.

- And you just kind of get stuck with like, what does your heart tell you to do, and either way, know that, you know, not everything is going to end in sunshine and rainbows, because that's just this kind of story.

- Yeah, totally.

- I mean, that's life, right? That is 100% life. But you know, you all touched on it. Like, Don't Nod, they just make amazing stories, where not only do they deal with heavy topics like you mentioned, Ethan, but I think they do it so well. They're like a French development team, I believe.

- Yeah.

- And they just-- they get the gravity of a lot of situations, and they know how to tell that story and make you feel. And so Banishers Ghosts of New Eden, out now.

- Play it.

- Give it a shot.

- Play it.

- Yeah, there you go. Play it. It's got Ethan's stamp of approval.

- It's so good. Yeah. It's so good.

- I love that. And then, Helldivers, I know you've been playing a little bit, Ethan. How's that been?

- Yeah. Don't mind me wiping the sweat from my forehead live on the air. But--

- Guess what?

- Yeah, yeah. Similar to Palworld. Co-op friends, like, people that play with their friends, we're eating good this month. I mean, between Palworld and Helldivers, I have zero free time. It is so fun. I mean, I cannot-- I think Gamespot called it Starship Bloopers, which is probably the best nickname for Helldivers I've seen thus far. It's just fun. It's like, I've never seen a game introduce so many frustrating mechanics, like non-safe reloading-- when you reload, you lose the ammo if you reload early. Friendly fire. All the-- I can't think-- I can't think of them all of a sudden.

But there's like 10 mechanics that are all on their own, frustrating, but you put them in here, and they're great. Like, it's fun to mess up. It's fun to blow yourself up with artillery. Stain has killed me 100 times, I swear. This is me calling him out live on the air. He is a murderer. And no one should play Helldivers with him.

- Noted.

- But it is very-- yeah. But it's just so fun. Like, there's so many biomes, so many planets to fight. I've never seen a community be as positive as this one, just in terms of everybody leaning in to spreading democracy-- managed. Managed democracy-- across the galaxy. The memes that have come out have been so funny. And just like, the sheer amount of love from the community of people being, you know, shouting out Xbox fans that are dying to try this game. Shouting out people from different platforms. Like, I just can't fathom the positivity coming out of this game.

People are going to-- I don't know. They should like, teach a clinic on how to build a positive community, because this is unreal. It really is a fun thing to be a part of, beyond just playing the game. Definitely go check it out.

- I love that. I love that. And that's available on Steam, so be sure to give it a shot. And then for me, you all know, so, I like to think of myself as the representer of the unheard, the people who play one or two video games their entire life, and rack up thousands of hours in it. So my answer for what I'm playing, obviously, Apex Legends. We haven't talked about it since the new update again. That game came out five years ago. Where has time gone?

- Wow.

- It is insane to think about. But they're on Season 20. It's called-- I can't remember. I think it's called Break Point-- or, Breakout. Excuse me. It's called Breakout. And the game is basically a new game. You know, a lot of the community have been calling it basically Apex Legends 2, because it fundamentally changes how you play the game.

All of the legends now, there are no more EVO shields on the ground, so you have to upgrade your shields. And every time you upgrade your shields, you get one-- you get your choice between one of two perks, to make your legend a little bit better. And so that really does change the game.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah.

MALIK PRINCE: Like, Lifeline is the only person with a self-revive now. They took that out of the game a few seasons ago. And so, I'm a Lifeline main.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: I was going to say, are you still only playing Lifeline? Is that all you play? Yeah.

MALIK PRINCE: I only play Lifeline. And I will say, funny thing, if anyone knows me, they know that I don't buy skins in video game. I like to be what they call a no skin. I stick with the original skin, just because even if I'm really good, I like to like, throw off the opponents and the enemies a little bit.

- Gotta hustle them.

- Thinking that I'm not-- yeah, exactly. That's a good way of putting it, Tina. And so, but this was the first game that I bought a skin in. Apex and Respawn, they're really hitting their stride with, like, all of the skins and the cosmetics and stuff that they have in the game. So highly recommend you all give that a shot if you have been out of Apex like I have been for a few months. I actually jumped back in-- jumped back in, and it's been an amazing experience. And I can't stop playing. I kind of wish I didn't, because like you all, I have an insane backlog of games that I just--

- Yeah.

- I'm like, I could start a new game and invest my time, and I really want to. Or I could just play a few games of Apex. And Apex always wins out. But, so, I've been having a great time with that.

And then last week, I also got a chance to go out to Salt Lake City. The fine folks at 2K invited me out to check out WWE 2K24 at their community day, which is the day they put on for their top WWE 2K24 2K creators, where they preview the game. They actually held it in the same arena that SmackDown-- for all you wrestling fans out there. Go SmackDown.

They held it at that arena, the Delta Center, I believe, in Salt Lake City. And it was just a great event. Folks got to play the game. They got to meet WWE superstars. And I got to take my own WWE 2K24 cover-- this is what the real cover of the game should be, OK? Not Cody Rhodes. Not The Rock.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: It looks great.

TINA AMINI: Amazing.

- Thank you, thank you. You all like my poses? Look at that top pose. It's hard to see, but.

- Yeah, that's the most, like, presidential one, like, I think--

MALIK PRINCE: Yeah, I know.

- Did you get to pick, like, which was the primary, and which were the secondary pictures?

- So this is-- so, interestingly enough, this is fashioned after the actual cover. So they have those four poses, and so you have to take them in order. So they tell you, like, this is going to be the top pose, and this is going to be the second one. So I had to hold up the one with me with the WWE Championship--

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Because that's what I'm going to be when I leave Xbox one day.

- Right. Sure.

- I'm going to WWE, and I'm becoming a world champion. OK?

- The Prince of Xbox to the King of the WWE. I got it. I love it.

- It's just a retirement plan. Come on now.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Maybe not I asked for my body, but, you know, whatever.

- I feel like you're going to look great. Can I ask when the decision came into play, between what photo, to take off your sweater for those?

- That's-- you know what? That's an astute observation, Ethan. If you're not watching, if you're listening, there's one photo with me and my sweatshirt, and then the others without it. It was incredibly hot in that arena.

- I bet.

- And so this was the first thing I did. And after one picture, I was like, I got to take this off. It was too much. And so I decided to do the one with the WWE Champion as-- championship-- as that one. But that's a good call out.

Now, if you're excited to learn more about the game, of course, it comes out March 8. The embargo lifts, if you're watching this, the day this podcast goes live. It comes out tomorrow, Friday, February 23. So be sure to start-- check out that coverage when it releases. It's going to be a great time. I'm excited to get in the ring. And I'm going to my first WrestleMania in April. I can't wait.

- Hype.

- Very exciting.

- So great. We want to hear what you're playing. Be sure to hit up the YouTube comments, and the comments on the platform that you're listening to, and let us know what you're playing. Because we want to know. We want to know what's spinning in that solid state drive. I guess solid state drives don't spin anymore.

- They don't spin, yeah.

- That's the appeal.

- Exactly.

- It doesn't work so much for puns, but great on the tech advancement.

- Exactly. Exactly.

- Stop saying that stuff, dude. My hardware credibility.

- I know, I know. I'm getting there. I'm getting there.

- That's why you're here, Ethan.

- It's just to keep him in check. Yeah.

- Set us straight. 100%.

So let's talk about headlines for the week. So if you haven't checked out Xbox Wire, we announced that four fan favorite Xbox games will be coming to Nintendo Switch and Sony platforms this spring. The studios that built these celebrated games have drawn on their multi-platform experience to open the worlds they created to more players and communities. And that's really what this is all about, is bringing games to more players to enjoy them. And I think we all enjoy the games that are going to be coming to the platforms, including Pentiment, which will be coming to PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Nintendo Switch on February 22.

We have Hi-Fi Rush, a game that I know that took the world by storm last year when Shadow dropped in the developer direct. Grounded, a game that I've played so much of, from Obsidian, is going to be coming to PS4, PS5, and Nintendo Switch on April 16. And then of course, Sea of Thieves, a game that, Ethan, I know you know all too well, will be coming to PlayStation 5 on April 30.

And so again, more games coming to more players. That's what it's all about. And this is great to see. I think the developers are going to have more people playing the game and that's-- playing their games. And that's what it's all about.

So let's talk a little bit about new releases. So if you head over to Xbox Wire, there's a ton of awesome games coming to Xbox, including a game called Penny's Big Breakaway, which is one of the cutest games I've ever seen. And Shadow dropped on yesterday, if you're watching this on the day this releases, February 21, so be sure to check that out.

And then we have some releases-- new releases. We talked a little bit about Banishers Ghost of New Eden, so be sure to check it out, again. And then Skull and Bones. Now, Ethan, I know you've been playing Skull and Bones a little bit. Tell us about this game.

- Yar. Yeah. So, yar. Yeah. Yar

Yeah, Skull and Bones. I mean, if you're looking for more pirate content-- I mean, I have played, like you said, I have a lot of hours in Sea of Thieves. Some would say too many. I would disagree. But I'm a big fan of pirate settings, obviously. And so the fact that Ubisoft is taking another crack at a pirate game, very hyped to kind of jump in. And so, I think there is a lot to love about this game. Jumping in with some friends was, we really enjoyed it. And I will preface this, most of my playtime was in the beta. I have not jumped into the full game quite yet.

But what I liked about it was kind of the vibe of running around with my friends. It was-- early game is very relaxing. It definitely ramps up in difficulty, but the first-- you know, I don't even want to-- it's like, the first five, six, like, levels of rep was very chill, like, very, very good in how they wean you into it, and kind of just a relaxing game after work.

So I was really enjoying my time in it. Obviously, shanties have been, you know, added back in. So you can enjoy the shanties. Probably the most important feature of the game, if I might add. But overall, just kind of a fun playground to sail around. Taking on forts with your friends is just a lot of fun, or the randos in the server. You know, I found a lot of folks that were willing to help with my quest, just kind of in the open world. Which is always kind of a relief in those sorts of games.

It feels a lot like a Division or something like that, but on a boat. You know, there's a lot of open world progression, a lot of factions to kind of work for and with. But overall, enjoying my time with it. Excited to dive in, but like you said, there's just so many games right now. It's hard to kind of devote so much time to any one title. So I'm kind of all over the place right now. But when I get back to Skull and Bones, I'm definitely going to be excited to do so.

- I think what's cool about that game, too, is it's like, the original inspiration was, you know, coming from the Ubisoft family, was Assassin's Creed Black Flag.

- Right.

- So obviously, a lot of the like, the ship-focused battling that I think was such an incredible part of Black Flag, that really stood out for that particular title, seems represented here too. But there's also like, land exploration and missions, and, like, combat, and all of that. Like, what is that balance so far, knowing that you only played the beta for now?

- Yeah. So there is no land combat in this game, but there is land exploration. So there are outposts you'll find in towns that are really well-populated, and very, very beautiful and unique to kind of the setting, if you're on the coast of Africa versus-- I want to say Indonesia, you know, there's a lot of cool settings there, and different variety in the landscapes.

But you know, just to be very clear, like, it is very much a combat in the ship game. It feels way more like you're kind of sailing around an overworld and staying within that, you know, generally. Even when you're chopping down wood or mining ore, you're going to be doing it from your ship. You're going to pull up to these trees on the shoreline and mine them. So I think, you know, just to level set expectations with folks, I think it's probably a good thing.

But it doesn't-- it kind of lends itself to its own unique experience. And if you kind of accept that for what it is, you really start to really enjoy it. I mean, I love sailing around. I bought every ship I could in the beta, and tried them all. They all have different varieties. There's three different kinds. You can be a tank, you can be support, you can be DPS. And a group of friends playing is three.

So you could, in theory, have one of each ship. And you have-- you know, you can have your medical ship. You can have your mortar ship, or your ram, or whatever you want. And you can customize every facet of that, you know, with tons of cosmetics, which is the most important thing to me. Literally the polar opposite of Malik, to be honest.

But it is-- it is a lot of fun to kind of build up your own ship, to, you know, I remember when you first roll into the port, the first pirate port, all the pirates are spitting at your feet and don't like you, but then you start to like, get reputation, and you come in, and they're like, this guy's not so bad. All right. You know? And then like, a little bit later, they're like, oh, OK. What a great pirate. Nice job. And I kind of appreciate that. You know, I like the little level of detail that they do in those kind of things around the map.

So yeah. Keep your eyes peeled. There's a lot of cool Easter eggs. There's some paranormal things to take on. There's some things, maybe, outside of the typical realm of piracy games you may be used to. So keep your eyes on that horizon. There's a lot to find.

- Ooh. That was a good-- that's a good way to end it. That was almost poetic. I love that.

- Thank you. Thank you. I pulled that right out of my rear end.

- Ethan the poet.

All right. Also releasing this week is Tomb Raider 1 through 3, remastered, which includes Tomb Raider 1 plus Unfinished Business-- Unfinished Business-- Tomb Raider 2 and the Golden Mask. And Tomb Raider 3, plus The Lost Artifact. So if you're-- I mean, those games speak for themselves. I mean, legendary games in the series. So be sure to check out their remasters.

And then of course, if you're looking for even more recommendations, if you haven't been convinced on a game to play yet, we have some new Game Pass titles, including Tales of Arise, Bluey the Videogame, which, by the way, this year is the first time I've ever heard of Bluey.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: What?

MALIK PRINCE: And I realize how out of touch I am. Have you-- have you all watched Bluey?

TINA AMINI: Well, yes, but only because I have like, three nieces and a nephew. So I think it's OK, if you don't have children, or are not surrounded by them. Yes. Absolutely.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: 100% what Tina said. 100% accurate right there.

MALIK PRINCE: Yeah. OK. Well, no, it's-- so it's Australian. It's about this dog, right? And I mean, I guess you should play the game. But-- or watch the series.

- It's about this dog, right? I want to put a pin in this, because Bluey is huge. So I just want all the parents that are in chat or listening to this podcast to be like, it's about this dog.

- It's like, Minecraft's like about blocks, right?

- Wow, y'all.

- So Bluey's about this dog, right? I don't really-- I don't really know much else.

- Malik, it's only because it's several dogs. That's why Ethan and I are laughing.

- Oh, OK. Well, the blue dog, right? That's we're talking about. Just kidding. But here's the thing. Like, Ethan is right-- both Ethan and Tina are right. This is massive. And I realized, I guess, I'm only intentionally being ignorant, because I know that there are so many huge fans. I think we released a very custom Bluey Edition Xbox Series X a little earlier this year. We put it up for giveaway, and I've never seen the internet want something so much. And so I just don't want to come off as a poser, OK? So Bluey--

- No, no. You're fine. You're totally fine.

- Thinking about out now on Game Pass. And then Return to Grace is out on Cloud Console and PC. A few more Game Pass titles. Of course, Resident Evil 3. Any Resident Evil fans in here? I'm sure.

TINA AMINI: Oh yeah.

MALIK PRINCE: Yeah?

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Absolutely.

MALIK PRINCE: And so we have that. We have played up A Little To The Left, and Bloodstained Ritual of the Night. So again, great titles that you can check out in Game Pass. Many of them on Cloud Console and PC. And so tons of games for you to try. And, you know, just give a shot.

- Just a real, real quick plug there Malik. Played up is a great title if you didn't already destroy all your relationships with Overcooked.

MALIK PRINCE: OK.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: And you need like--

TINA AMINI: If you really need to bring it home.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah. Yeah. It's a roguelike play-- or a roguelike Overcooked or something. It's very good. Highly recommend, if you haven't checked it out.

- OK. Well, my stress cannot handle that. So we're going to skip that one. But I'm sure it's for someone.

- Bluey will be good for you.

- Exactly. A little zen time.

And then we have some major updates for some titles. We're going to start with Overwatch 2, Season 9, which brings exciting core gameplay updates, including the competitive ranks were reset. Pharah was reworked. Of course, we love character reworks. New multiplayer hero mastery. Gauntlet, which was designed to test your team's skill with various challenges like tower defense, of course, and an updated Junkertown map. And so if you're into Overwatch 2, which I know so many-- like, this is one of the most hardcore video game series and their fans and players are just so--

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Oh yeah.

MALIK PRINCE: Passionate about the game. And so I know everyone's been waiting for this. So check it out. Season 9.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: It's a big shift, too.

MALIK PRINCE: Out now.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: It's a big shift in the meta. I think a lot of competitive players, it's going to be a lot of drastic changes. A lot of meta-- like, builds that people are going to have to shake it up, you know.

MALIK PRINCE: Nice.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: I think support-- I think support folks are going to be a little disappointed with their usual builds. They're going to have to mix it up a little bit. But they added a thing where all heroes can heal too, now, which is pretty wild. Like, I need some Overwatch professionals in here to talk about, like, all the changes. Because it is a significant seasonal change.

MALIK PRINCE: Oh. Well, there you have it. You got to keep people on their toes, you know. Every once in a while, you need a meta shift up--

- Oh yeah.

- To make sure that everyone is, you know, on an even playing field, somewhat.

And then one of my favorite games of this generation, Microsoft Flight Sim. I love jumping into Microsoft Flight Sim and just flying over places that I will never be able to afford to go to, like Italy and France, and it's just so good getting in a Cessna, flying over-- well, this time, there's a very interesting update, because for the first time ever, you're going to be able to fly on a planet that's not Earth, and that's Arrakis, which is part of Dune Part Two, which is out in theaters in March.

And so we're actually going to have Jorg Neumann on next week, I believe. He's going to be in studio to talk about this free expansion that you can get right now from Microsoft Flight Sim. So be sure to check it out. Such-- I mean, they've done some really great stuff in this game, including like, putting a Pelican inside Flight Sim.

Like, I love that such a serious sim game like Flight Sim is able to have a little bit of fun and add new vehicles and new expansions. And so be sure to check that out, if you're like me, and want to play a game that's a little bit more-- a little bit more zen. So there you have it. A few title updates, and then we have--

- Two notes. Two notes on that. Only two notes, because, Jorg was actually on our Showcase Extended show last year, and so he did a really cool behind the scenes, like, how they built the ornithopter, like, how they kind of mapped out Arrakis, and like, did it kind of, you know, as close to 1 to 1, to kind of rebuild that environment that you're flying through. And also, he actually demoed the expansion with Timothee Chalamet himself. I think it was a red carpet of some sort, but he like, brought Timothee into the-- like a, recreated ornithopter, and he just played the game and the demo there. So yeah. Pretty, pretty cool moment as well. So Jorg is all over the place this week, and as of late. Yeah.

- That's awesome.

- He's such a superstar. I just want to be Jorg because he just has this presence about him. Like, when he walks in the room, he's like, from what I could see, he's just so personable. And--

- Yeah.

- To your point, yeah, the London premiere was last week. And we actually have the New York City premiere this Sunday, which I will be at. So if you happen to be at the New York City premiere of Dune Part Two, say hi, I guess.

- Say hi.

- You know.

- Nice, man. That'll be awesome. Everyone needs to go. That'll be fun. Yeah.

- Yeah. It's going to be good. I can't wait to jump into that life-size ornithopter and see if I can, you know, if I can fly.

- Maybe Timothee Chalamet can demo you on the expansion this time. He'll be an expert by then.

- That would be the coolest thing ever. And Zendaya? Come on. This is going to be the best.

And then last piece of news, we have the Xbox-- the February update started rolling out, which brings touch controls to Xbox Remote Play--

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Yeah.

MALIK PRINCE: A new thumbstick calibration tool. Ethan's excited about that.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: I'm a huge fan of Remote Play. I'll-- one of the best features we don't talk about enough at Xbox. Remote Play rules.

- Hey, I'm all about it. Now you have a new input with touch controls. A new thumbstick calibration tool for Xbox wireless controllers, and improved filtering and sorting in My Games And Apps. I think everyone's My Games And Apps is like, hundreds, if not thousands of titles. And so this is a great way to be able to kind of go through a little bit quicker. And you can also filter games now by accessibility, supported languages, which is something that folks around the world have really wanted to know, whether or not a game supports their language. So you're going to be able to filter that way. And so just a number of really great quality of life, as well as new additions coming in this new February update.

And then we have a special stream coming up, actually. This Friday, February 23, at 10:00 AM Pacific, Age of Empires-- the team will be holding a live stream across their social channels. The stream is actually called New Year, New Age. Love that title.

ETHAN ROTHAMEL: Nice.

MALIK PRINCE: And we're looking forward to seeing some exciting updates across the franchise, including Age of Mythology Retold. And so be sure to check out that stream tomorrow if you're watching this the day this podcast goes out.

Lots of games, lots of news, lots of updates. It's a great time to be an Xbox player. But we're going to shift gears a little bit, because earlier this month, of course, this being Black History Month, I got a chance to sit down with Damon Packwood, who is the creator of Gameheads, to talk a little bit about building diversity and inclusion, and how he's doing his part to do that in the game developer space.

Just a quick note, of course, there are a few technical difficulties. So you may see a little bit of choppiness. But I think the conversation was a really frank and honest conversation that I think you all are going to love. So check it out.

What's going on, everybody. It is Malik. Now, gaming is the most powerful entertainment medium, in my opinion. And here at Xbox, we seek to empower and uplift voices from diverse communities year round, while of course, also taking the time during moments like February, to shine an extra bright spotlight on individual communities.

And as we continue to celebrate Black History Month, Xbox has partnered with Gameheads to help showcase how they are helping to prepare student developers for a career in gaming. So let's talk about it. Here with me to talk about it is the creator of Gameheads, Damon Packwood. Damon, how are you?

- Pretty good. How are you guys doing? Sorry. You're a little choppy. So I'm hoping that I'm not choppy.

- You sound great. You sound great, Damon. Well, thanks so much for joining us. For those who may not have heard of it, can you tell us a little bit about what Gameheads is?

DAMON PACKWOOD: Yeah. Gameheads is a nonprofit organization. We're based out of Oakland, California. But we have expansion sites in Hawaii, working on Atlanta. And we had students in 17 different states. We have a virtual component as well. We teach game design, development, DevOps, and mixed media to low income students and students of color, ages 15 through 25. So the goal is to in short, prepare them for college, career, and civic life.

- I love that. And I love how you're expanding. Because as I was doing my research a little bit, and I saw that you were in Oakland, I thought that, you know, obviously, that's super great. But you know, as someone who-- I grew up in Brooklyn, and I was always-- I always would flip through magazines and see so many things about the gaming industry that were on the West Coast.

And I'm like, there's-- I can't even afford to vacation to the West Coast, much less see myself down the road working in the gaming industry, which was predominantly-- and for the most part still is, predominantly on the West Coast. And so I love that the, you know, expanding to new cities and bringing the opportunities to more-- to more students, and really helping them get interested and see that path towards being a part of the gaming industry.

I want to take a step back, though, to kind of the inspiration portion of it. And can you tell me a little bit, in your mind, why is it so important to have a diversity of game creators in the industry?

- Yeah. I mean, you know, I've been playing games for-- I mean, since the Atari days, man. And you know, the thing that I remember doing all the time is fantasizing about-- you know, once you really get into games, you start fantasizing about experiences that you just don't get to have, right? Like, everybody, I mean, I remember when I was working out of United Roots, and I would have like, brothers, you know, find out what I was doing, and these cats would be on the corner, and they would come up to me. These are hard brothers. And they would find out what I was doing. And they would be like, yo, man. I got an idea for a video game. And you'd be like, oh, snap. You do?

So like, everybody, like every culture, every community, has ideas for video games. At the end of the day, it's just entertainment, right? Like, we look at music. We got diversity entertainment. We look at TV, we got diverse entertainment. You look at movies, like, you can find Black films, Japanese films, French films, Italian films, like, Nigerian films. Like, you can find all of that.

The gaming industry, you know, is like, like you said, it's the biggest industry in the world, and it's time for the industry to like, catch up to that. I think, inevitably, people are fine playing Uncharted, but you know, sometimes you want to play something a little bit different, with a little bit of flavor, and you know, that's more akin to kind of like, your experiences growing up. So that's why the diversity is important.

- Yeah. And I wanted to kind of expand on that a little bit. Because I think that one of the things that I've often said, and I think maybe you have agreed with it, and maybe some-- you or some of your students have said it, is like, the want to be able to see yourself in the games that you play, right? And it's this thing-- I often think about it as something that is almost said so much that people may dismiss it. And you know, we have a great audience. Shout out to the Xbox podcast audience.

But this is, you know, to be frank, this is going on the internet. And inevitably, whether it's in good faith, general curiosity, or in bad faith, as some people may be, when they hear something like, someone saying, I want to see myself in the games that are made, they may go to a place, like, why is that so important? Like, why is it important?

And I go back to things like the hairstyles in video games when I was growing up. I had the choice between cornrows or an Afro, right? Or like a complete buzzcut, right? And so there are just so many aspects to why it's so important to have those diverse creators making games. And so can you expand a little bit, in your opinion, on why seeing yourself in the games, and having people who are the same race as you make the games, why is that so important?

- Well, when games are at its best, it's immersive, right? Like, you know, you're not-- it's not like two hours in. You're in, like, for 300 hours at times, 40 hours, 60 hours, or whatever. So you know, that immersion breaks if they don't really look or speak the way you want them to. Like, I remember spending-- I had to recreate my character in Cyberpunk like three times just to make sure that he looked like a brother who had that voice. You know what I mean? It was really, really hard. I had to go through it three different times.

But more importantly, man, it's also about, like, video games are only 40 years old. Like, people forget about that. Like, we still haven't figured out what video games are, how to make them, like-- you know, we still-- we still haven't figured it all out. Like the aesthetics are not quite set in stone just yet.

You know, if you look at any art form, it's been around for like, hundreds of years, like. Like I said, I keep going back to film, but also radio, TV, theater, dance. Like, it's been around for years. So you have all of this wealth of knowledge, as far as like, aesthetics, or in terms of games, like, different game mechanics and things like that.

So if you look at different points of like-- I always study media. And I've always been fascinated at you know, points throughout history where a particular media started to get stale. And then what got it exciting was when diversity kind of came into it. And it wasn't always Black folks. It was always-- like, right now, Koreans are killing it in cinema right now. Like, Korea is making, like, the best movies right now, the best TV shows. And it's kind of revived people's interest-- you know, even, pop, like, you know, what was K-pop, like, 20 years ago? But now, like, everybody's into pop because K-pop is blowing up.

So I just think that, you know, like that's kind of-- you know, people used to always tell me, like, next gen is like, this graphics card or what have you. Like, 10, 15 years ago. And I was like, nah, man. Next gen is diversity, because that's what's going to be the shot in the arm that we kind of need creatively speaking.

- Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, we're going to go back to Gameheads and talk a little bit about it. But before that, just want to remind everyone who is watching and listening that Microsoft Rewards members in the United States can earn and donate their points to organizations like Gameheads, supporting Black communities with Xbox. So if you don't have money, by completing Game Pass quests and playing your Xbox games, you can earn points that then you can donate to Gameheads. So it's a great way to help support.

Now, can you talk a little bit about some of the success stories? Because again, like, this is a great program that is kind of giving people a gateway into the gaming industry. And so I would love to hear some of, you know, the awesome success stories that you've seen at Gameheads.

- Yeah, man. We have so many success stories. Like, I think the thing that's cool about my job is, and I always tell my students this, my job at the end of the day is just to hook you guys up. Right? So it's really about helping you guys kind of accomplish, you know, your dreams, you know. And I don't mean to sound cliche, but that's really what we do.

So I mean, you know, success stories can range from students working at Xbox, right? Like-- Xbox Publishing right now. She just won a VGA. Like, that's dope, to see VGA. Right? Like, or, I think it was one of our other students, Morales Rocha, who was there, as well at Xbox Publishing. And now he's at Psionics.

But then there's like Kai, who graduated from USC's Interactive Media and Game Design program, and then created her own studio. So we're super proud of her.

There's-- which is a group of like five or six fems that decided to make their own game. We gave them $40,000 in seed capital, and then they turned it into like $150,000. And they were able to make their own game and put it out on Google Play, right? Like, they decided that they wanted to do that before they, you know, went into test the sort of gaming market.

So we have all those success stories. I mean, we have students that are working on WWE 2K. We have students that are working on Tomb Raider, Valorant, Marvel Spider-Man. You know, we've got students working on, like a ton of titles. And you know, Call of Duty. We got like two students worked on the Warzone that just-- and four total that worked on Call of Duty in general.

It's kind of cool when you can say that you've been working with students since they were like 16, and now, like, four years, five years later, they're working on a title that you actually play. You know what I mean? Like, that's actually cool. And they get paid really well for it, so. You know, those are pretty cool success stories in my opinion. Not just them working in the industry, but them also graduating from, you know, some of the top colleges on the West Coast.

- Yeah, I mean, I can't-- I can't imagine the amount of pride that you have in kind of seeing, to your point, like, seeing some of your students kind of go through the entire kind of program and then come out the other side being super successful, because it's that kind of success that then encourages and is the fuel for kids coming up, to be a part of that. And so I think that you know, this is a great start. And to your point, like, the industry is so young, generally speaking, that there's-- in the best possible way, there's only an upside and great things to come.

And so-- but the work is so noble, and it's obviously, you have to be passionate about it to kind of push through. In your opinion, what are some of the challenges that you've had, like, that you have, or that you have had, or continue to have, and kind of getting this program to where it can be.

- I think-- I mean, some of the biggest challenges-- I mean, there's a ton of them, right? Like, the two biggest challenges that we're all dealing with is AI and then, just you know, the volatility of the industry right now. It's just kind of all over the place. Revenue is kind of down somewhat, you know, the last couple of years. And so we're all sort of figuring that out.

But then in terms of programs, like, no, you're dealing with a lot of people who don't play video games, right? Like, you have a lot of parents that don't play video games, and/or don't consider it to be a viable career. A lot of people that, when we apply for grants, people that approve the grants are in their 40's. And if you look at the demographics of people that play video games, it's like, 40-something and up don't play as many games.

So when you start talking to them about, like you said, this is the biggest industry you know, in the world right now. This is, like, everybody is playing video games that are, you know-- that we serve. They can't wrap their minds around it. Like, they understand the phone and like, build apps and things like that, because that's what they mess with.

But as soon as you mention games, as soon as you mention something like Fortnite, which is like, I walk into a room and I do this joke. I say, OK. Like, Aphrodite is the god of what? And then I say, like, Zeus is the god of what? And then I go, Kratos. Right? And like, nobody knows what I'm talking about. And then that's how I know, I'm like, I'm in the wrong room, right?

So that's a big challenge, right? And then you brought up one earlier. Most of the gaming industry is on the West Coast. So when we're trying to create programming that's not on the West Coast-- and by West Coast, we mean Washington and California, it's really, really challenging.

Mentors are really, really challenging. Instructors are really, really challenging. If you are good enough to teach it, you're most likely working in the industry, and you're getting paid a lot of money, and/or, you don't have time, because you work a lot. So like, when do you have time to teach a class or get mentored, right? This is the reason why, you know, knock on wood, we tend to do better than some colleges and universities, because we're fortunate enough to have a core group of like, instructors, who have like, 20-something years of experience in the industry.

But it's hard. You know what I mean? Like, we've tried to kind of increase that, and every time we do increase it, we immediately hit-- what's the word, like, we immediately hit capacity, because there's not a lot of programs like Gameheads. But there's a ton of students that want to learn how to make games.

- Yeah. And I think, you know, that deliberate question was kind of like, set up to kind of give a call to action to the industry and publishers across the industry to help support programs like these, because it's unbelievably important towards the-- for the future of the industry.

DAMON PACKWOOD: Like, I always tell people that. Like, you'd be surprised-- generally, when we have mentors, like, during the summer or what have you, a mentor will meet with a student for one hour a week. You'd be surprised like, how much you're actually giving that young person by, like, volunteering your time, one hour per week, for like 10 to 15 weeks. It's like, it's monumental how much they can learn, let alone-- you know, let alone if somebody's teaching a 90-minute class for like, six weeks. It sounds like a lot when you're looking at, like, oh, man, 90 minutes every Saturday for six weeks.

But considering like, 365 days out of the year, it's not a lot. But what you end up giving them is monumental. And that's why I always tell people, like, you know, we'll take whatever time you can give, because once-- you know, it takes a village to raise a child. And so when we have a lot of new developers in our village, students end up learning a lot.

- 100%. 100%. Well, last question for you. One of the things that, you know, we have an entire team, the Xbox Social Impact team. Shout out to them. They do amazing work, not only for Black History Month, but cultural moments throughout the year. And a lot of the teams within Xbox that kind of focus on DEI, one of the things they always say is, like, their goal is to work themselves out of a job, which is to say that the hope is that one day, we'll be in a place where there is an equal-- everyone is on an equal footing, and able to thrive. And I think that's absolutely noble. Whether it's attainable, that's on all of us to kind of work together to get to that spot. What is your ultimate hope with Gameheads and the industry all up.

- Yeah, I mean, I agree, right? Like, when you start nonprofit organizations, that's kind of like your goal. It's like, I'm trying to-- if we erase this problem, I'm not needed, right? But what I always tell people is, and they say, like, what's your moonshot for Gameheads? I'm like, you know, when I was young, we had a program called Upward Bound. I was an Upward Bound kid.

The cool thing about Upward Bound is they prepared you for college. If you applied to a university, it would ask you for your extracurricular activities. It would say, have you taken any college preparatory programs like Upward Bound? So Upward Bound was so well known that it was on the college application, because what that meant is that young person was working. They were preparing on Saturdays and during the summer. That's why so many Upward Bound students are successful.

That's what I want Gameheads to be. Like, I want-- I mean, Gameheads is not going to be on the application. But I want Gameheads to have the type of reputation that when people see Gameheads on a resume, or they see within a cover letter or what have you, they'll say, this student has been preparing to either be in this college program, or this student has been preparing to be in this industry.

And I am 100% in agreement, like, our students are preparing to be the next generation of game developers. As in, we're not here to replace people. You know, we're not here to make people lose their job. But as people transition out of the industry, the generation that's been working over the last 40 years, and have built the industry, like, we want to make sure that our students are going to be replacing them.

- Well, Damon, I got to say, you're well on your way to that goal. And I look forward to that day. Where can people keep up with Gameheads if they want to do that?

DAMON PACKWOOD: Yeah. On X, WeAreGameheads. You know, @WeAreGameheads. That's the best place to see a lot of our updates. We're also on Facebook. If you go to our website, gameheadsoakland.org, you can sign up for our newsletter. But yeah. We're around. Or just ask a friend. You know, we know a lot of people in the industry, so I'm sure, you know, it's kind of like that Kevin Bacon effect. It's not a big industry. If you ask somebody, somebody knows us. And feel free to reach out to me direct as well.

- I love that. Love that. And once again, if you're a Microsoft Reward member in the United States, you can earn and donate points by completing things like Xbox Game Pass quests, to organizations such as Gameheads, so that you don't have to spend a dime, but you can help support Gameheads. Once again, Damon, thank you so much for stopping by and talking to us.

- Hey, man. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

- All right. Of course. Back to the studio.

All right. Our thanks to Damon Packwood from Gameheads for that great conversation. Again, I thought it was really honest. I mean, even us talking about like, the fact that I know some people are going to listen to that and ask themselves, like, why does it matter? Just make games. But diversity and inclusion does matter in gaming. And so I really appreciate that conversation. Shout out to Damon.

All right. So let's talk a little bit about Free Code Friday. I'd like to think that you all watch for us, but I know some of you are watching just for these free codes. And so we actually have a few Banishers Ghosts of New Eden codes to give away. Be sure to tune into @XboxWire on Twitter, between noon and 2:00 PM Pacific time, tomorrow, Friday, February 23. The codes will be DMed to the winners via Twitter. And so the question, though, that you're going to have to answer, which I would love to hear, Ethan and Tina, your answer to this, because I don't think I have one, is what would be your weapon of choice for fighting the supernatural?

Who wants to go first? Because I got to think about it, if I'm being honest.

- I can go first, only because--

- Thank God.

- I'm such a horror nerd. And I have like, probably watched everything ghost and supernatural, including the actual show, Supernatural, several times over. And honestly, the reigning thing is like, salt.

- Salt.

- Salt is just so universally useful. Yeah, you-- you have barriers. You create barriers for a lot of different supernatural entities. So if you like-- and you can also use it in seances and other kind of spellcasting as well. So in case you're dabbling in that kind of lore, in that universe, where it's multi-useful, then that's-- and maybe like-- maybe like a shotgun that shoots like, rock salt. So that you also can turn it into a weapon. I feel like that's a nice, like, crossover cheat.

- Like those shotguns for bugs?

- It depends. Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. Like, you know. But it really depends, like, what is the supernatural entity that you're fighting? Because salt isn't going to do anything against, like, werewolves and vampires, unless there was like, garlic salt. So I'll say that. Garlic salt in a shotgun. Like, that's-- and rock salt. Yeah. Garlic rock salt in a shotgun. That's my answer.

- OK. That's wow. Hold on, Ethan. As someone-- let me say this. Because I actually-- as someone who doesn't have an answer, I want to judge both of your answers. Let me start. OK. Tina, first, this is a full stream of thought. So-- but you can only have one weapon, right? And then I'm sure you have to have a finite amount of salt, so don't you think that--

- Well, you didn't-- you never said that I wouldn't get unlimited ammunition. Like, you really got to qualify the question there.

- OK.

- I'm assuming endless amounts of salt. But yeah, I mean, it really depends. Because then I might go, like, what's the holy water, or what is the like, you know, what is the light that you get in Lord of the Rings? Like, there's just a couple different angles you can take it towards, where there are multi-useful substances. So it's not really a weapon, like, you're not like, oh, a scythe, because half the things are not going to be, like, actual enemies that you can hit. So you got to think the supernatural angle.

- Very practical response. A good one, actually.

- I tried, I tried.

- You can also use that salt to cook, so two birds.

- Multi-multi-useful.

- Yeah, there you go. There you go. That's actually a really good response. And separately from this podcast, Tina, I want to talk to you about horror movies, because I also am like a, big, big fan of horror.

- Oh yes.

- And games. But that's a really good response. My immediate question was the same thing, it's like, what are we talking about here?

- OK.

- I'd like to assume that I can just sweet talk the ghost and get out of it that way. The only tool in my Rolodex. But I--

- I feel like I communicate with them.

- Yeah. OK. That's true.

- The lore implications are endless. You really got to give me some confines here.

- Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. Like, honestly, I like the shotgun. If it was zombies, I'd take an M1 Carbine from World War 2. And the only reason I chose that is because that's what Max Brooks recommends in The Zombie Survival Handbook. I really don't have anything better than salt. Yeah. That's a great answer.

- That's it. You heard it here. You heard it here.

- It's the answer. Yeah. It's the answer.

- Hm. I was trying to think about what-- supernatural-- yeah, I don't know. I guess I was judging your answers, again, not having a good one, and so you know what, count me in on the salt.

- Yeah.

- Here we go.

- Is like-- is a spellbook-- does a spellbook count as a weapon? Yeah.

- I feel like yeah.

- Because then spellbook, then you got multiple spells in there. That's a nice cheating answer I would say.

- What if you don't know how to cast spells?

- Well, that's why you got the book.

- Yeah.

- To educate you. And practice.

- You're like, hold on one second. I got to read. Let me--

- Yes.

- Flipping the pages.

- Well, from all the-- from all the movies I've seen, like The Craft, for example, you just need some friends and a book. And then you get into some serious trouble.

- That's true.

- OK.

- Religious symbols help too. But then you run the risk of having the wrong one for the wrong ghost, and it's like--

- Yeah.

- Oh, I was off. Yeah. And then you're dead.

- OK. OK. Well you know what? It's not about us, it's about what the viewers and the listeners out there think. And so be sure to go to Xbox Wire on Twitter between, again, noon and 2:00 PM Pacific, this Friday, February 23, and tell us what your weapon of choice would be for fighting the supernatural. And you just might walk away with a Banishers Ghosts of New Eden code.

All right. So that is the show. Great show. Thanks to both of you, both Ethan and Tina, for joining me today. Welcoming me back to the show. It's been a while. It's been a little bit of time.

- Too long. Too long.

- Yeah.

- A little bit too long. Any parting words, Tina? I'll go to you first.

- No, nothing. Just great to have you back, and basically, doing all the heavy lifting on this week's episode. Thanks, Malik. Appreciate you as always.

- Yeah.

- It's hard to follow you from last week. I mean, I feel like you've done an amazing job. So composed and so professional.

- Thank you. Appreciate you.

- Ethan, what's up?

- It's great. Not much. Just admiring the serial killer background that you have. But I am really grateful to be on this show. I think this is the first time I've been on, or maybe the second ever. So thank you so much for the invite. Just a joy to come talk video games with you all, and talk to the community.

For the folks tuning in, I miss you all. I hope you're doing well. And if I could plug something real quick-- Yeah. If you guys have feedback, design for Xbox hardware, things that excite you, you know, feel free to reach out to me. And we just launched our own wireless controllers for Xbox. So keep your eyes peeled for those as well.

- Hey, there we go. So great, again, thanks to all of you who are watching and are listening. Thanks for allowing us to be a part of your week. It's an honor and privilege every single week. I hope you have a great gaming weekend. And we'll see you next time. See you.

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